Show your Hunt and RMY photo wins

sphere and ash · #1 07-21-2018, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bicem

The t205 images really are incredible. Thompson had serious skill.

Paul Thompson was not a photographer; he was a businessman who ran a large photo agency. None of the images attributed to Thompson were actually taken by him. The images used to make the T205 set were probably taken by a dozen or more different photographers shooting on assignment.

Runscott · #2 07-21-2018, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Paul Thompson was not a photographer; he was a businessman who ran a large photo agency. None of the images attributed to Thompson were actually taken by him. The images used to make the T205 set were probably taken by a dozen or more different photographers shooting on assignment.

There is a post in this thread that says something similar; however, no reference to where he got his information: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=88365

Forever Young · #3 07-21-2018, 08:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Paul Thompson was not a photographer; he was a businessman who ran a large photo agency. None of the images attributed to Thompson were actually taken by him. The images used to make the T205 set were probably taken by a dozen or more different photographers shooting on assignment.

Can you please share your exact reference for this?

TCMA · #4 07-21-2018, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Can you please share your exact reference for this?

Surprisingly, there is very little info out there on Paul Thompson, though it is known he ran a news photo service. I�m under the impression he was the actual photographer for at least some of the T205 images, as referenced in this 2009 Smithsonian article:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/arts-...j2D9YY0Ue7z.99

Quote:

The gold borders sported another enhancement�portraits based on a remarkable series of contemplative close-ups by a New York City-based freelance photographer named Paul Thompson. Thompson, who built his reputation and his studio on a sitting with Mark Twain, would hire others to take pictures for him, but the gold-border portraits are attributed to him because they alone are copyrighted under his name.

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sphere and ash · #5 07-22-2018, 07:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Forever Young

Can you please share your exact reference for this?

Many years ago, I found an obituary for Thompson that stated directly that he was not a photographer. I can't find it at the moment, but I do see obituaries that state that he was a writer who saw the business opportunity and founded the photo agency a few years after graduating from Yale [Thompson died in 1940]. There is no contemporary source that states that Thompson was a photographer, which would be quite odd for someone whose name was so widely published.

If you look at the T205 images, you'll see that each city has its own distinct look, supporting the conjecture that each city was taken by a different photographer. The Philadelphia A's photographer, for example, has many of his subjects look away from the camera; the New York Giants' photographer has everyone stare directly into the lens.

Bain was trained as a wet plate photographer, but he was no longer a photojournalist by the time the Bain agency was active.

Thanks, bgar3. I've been following your posts about your Red Stocking and early baseball collection. Glad you're back.

TCMA · #6 07-22-2018, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Many years ago, I found an obituary for Thompson that stated directly that he was not a photographer.

Here is a link to his New York Times obit:

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/tim.../113120865.pdf

PSACJ · #7 07-22-2018, 11:11 PM

Here are the ones I got at Hunt Auctions. All Charles Conlon’s 8x10’s. Love the Ira Thomas with the Ads on the back!
Also looking for the winner of lots #262 & 493. I’m interested if you want to trade or sell. Andy

Runscott · #8 07-23-2018, 09:50 AM

This conversation has certainly gotten me thinking about the early baseball photographers and what we really know about them.

With some of the famous photographers there are stories as well as photos of them taking photos, leaving no doubt;e.g-Charles Conlon, the Frances Burke/George Burke connection, Horner's portraits. I haven't heard stories about Van Oeyen, but his images are consistent than in terms of composition and general feel. Even George Bain photos generally have a typical look and feel;i.e-you see some photos and know they are Bain images, as opposed to the images he pilfered. But as collectors we know he ran a news agency and that a 'Bain' that doesn't look like a Bain probably isn't.

Thompson has groups of photos that appear to be taken by the same photographer;e.g-a lot of his images of players batting or fielding have a Thompson 'look'. The T205 portraits also have a common look, but what struck me when I first saw the large Hunt group was that the portraits didn't look like they were taken by the same guy who did the action shots. Some of that I'm sure is because portraits have different requirements (depth of field, facial expressions) that action shots don't; however, I think Conlons portraits and action shots have more in common.

It wouldn't surprise me to find out that two different photographers did the T205 portraits and the action shots.

bobfreedman · #9 07-21-2018, 11:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Paul Thompson was not a photographer; he was a businessman who ran a large photo agency. None of the images attributed to Thompson were actually taken by him. The images used to make the T205 set were probably taken by a dozen or more different photographers shooting on assignment.

I heard the same thing a few years ago but heard it was Bainthat had many photographers working for his service. I find it difficult to believe that several/many peoples all worked for the same company and all the images look and feel the same way? If you look at all the Paul Thompson photos, they all have the same feel and look. How could have several people all manage that? This also goes for Bain as well? Just curious

bgar3 · #10 07-22-2018, 07:01 AM

Bob, I once had your new Thompson Joe Wood image, along with a corresponding image of Mathewson with a bat, almost as if taken together.
On The Who was the photographer question I can�t add actual facts or citations, but I can say that as a collector of both Bain and Thompson images in the 80�s and 90�s, before the current craze, all the collectors I knew accepted that the photos were taken by various photographers working for a larger agency. Also I think you can notice quite a difference in some of the Thompson�s which can sometimes be just out of focus. For what it is worth, the early feeling amoung collectors ranked Thompson behind Bain and Conlan in value. All three were of the highest order. There was a show of their work just after the famous Baseball Magazine sale, in New York I believe, but I no longer have my photos or material.
Finally, if Sphere and Ash is who I think he is, he used to possess one of the 3 greatest photo collections I have ever seen and was considered one of the most knowledgeable collectors of the time, who was very helpful to a fellow collector with a small budget.
At the risk of sounding like an Old Timer, which I quess I am, this was all taking place when you could get 100�s of these photos at one time. We would sometimes hold drafts of collections we had purchased, with later trades etc.
the collections that I know are still out there are truly amazing.

Forever Young · #11 07-22-2018, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bgar3

Bob, I once had your new Thompson Joe Wood image, along with a corresponding image of Mathewson with a bat, almost as if taken together.
On The Who was the photographer question I can’t add actual facts or citations, but I can say that as a collector of both Bain and Thompson images in the 80’s and 90’s, before the current craze, all the collectors I knew accepted that the photos were taken by various photographers working for a larger agency. Also I think you can notice quite a difference in some of the Thompson’s which can sometimes be just out of focus. For what it is worth, the early feeling amoung collectors ranked Thompson behind Bain and Conlan in value. All three were of the highest order. There was a show of their work just after the famous Baseball Magazine sale, in New York I believe, but I no longer have my photos or material.
Finally, if Sphere and Ash is who I think he is, he used to possess one of the 3 greatest photo collections I have ever seen and was considered one of the most knowledgeable collectors of the time, who was very helpful to a fellow collector with a small budget.
At the risk of sounding like an Old Timer, which I quess I am, this was all taking place when you could get 100’s of these photos at one time. We would sometimes hold drafts of collections we had purchased, with later trades etc.
the collections that I know are still out there are truly amazing.

Recent craze? Paul Thompson has been getting higher prices(particular in ruth) for a long while now. For good reason, they are beautiful images. Some of them rivaled by no one.
To say Paul Thompson was in no way a photographer and that he took zero photos ever, is just not factual. There is no way of knowing this and the library of Congress disagrees.
Even with a 1940 obit saying something, it was probably written by someone born in the 1800s. Photography was not a glamorous job. Talking in absolutes when absolutes aren’t known, or can never be proven seems odd to me. My guess is neither of you have Paul Thompson centric collections :-)
In my opinion, Paul Thompson credited photos are some of the greatest shots in baseball history. Some are perfect some are less than perfect just like Conlon, Bain, Van Oeyen etc..
I enjoy Some more than others but appreciate all of them.

sphere and ash · #12 07-22-2018, 08:40 AM

I believe the T205 images are spectacular and undervalued (disclosure: I own about a dozen and bought some in Hunt). It's my conjecture that they were taken expressly for the T205 set, which may explain in part why they represent such ground-breaking portraiture for their time.

I think the onus is on anyone asserting that Thompson took the images for which his agency is credited: find a contemporary reference. Conlon left mountains of evidence that he was a photographer--he entered his images into competitions, he wrote articles, he granted interviews. If Thompson was a photographer, there's a mention of it somewhere.

Edited to add: just saw the New York Times obituary. I don't think we're going to get a clearer statement than this: "Many people naturally assumed that Mr. Thompson was, or had been, an expert cameraman himself, but such was not the case." Thanks for finding it, Andrew.

bgar3 · #13 07-22-2018, 09:49 AM

My reference to recent craze was to contrast it to the 80�s and 90�s, what I thought was obvious was apparently not. So there is no misunderstanding I think photographs identified as Paul Thompson are fantastic and among the best. In fact in the Baseball Magazine sale I believe I paid then record prices for lots of Thompson photos. Oh the good old days.
Thanks for the obituary.

Lordstan · #14 07-22-2018, 10:16 AM

Wow. That is an interesting obit.

I do notice one thing about the obit and the Smithsonian article. Neither says absolutely that he did or did not take photos himself.

In the smithsonian article regarding the T205s...
"The gold borders sported another enhancement—portraits based on a remarkable series of contemplative close-ups by a New York City-based freelance photographer named Paul Thompson. Thompson, who built his reputation and his studio on a sitting with Mark Twain, would hire others to take pictures for him, but the gold-border portraits are attributed to him because they alone are copyrighted under his name."

To me this means, they assume he took them because no one else was given credit, not because someone has specific proof he did. This conclusion, which in many ways is a reasonable and logical one to make, is clearly disproven by the story towards the end of the obit about the boat race. This clearly shows photos taken by others were not just released, but were published, under his name.

Second, In the obit...
"Many people naturally assumed that Mr. Thompson was, or had been, an expert cameraman himself, but such was not the case. His success in developing his business came from his ability to select able associates, several of whom started their careers with him as office boys."

Now this does not say he never took photos. He obviously took the Twain ones. I assume he took many others, but there is no way to know for sure how many. Additionally, there is no way to know which one were specifically taken by him vs his employees.

When you put this information together, the only absolute conclusion you can make is that other photographers took at least some of the photos credited to Paul Thompson.

TCMA · #15 07-22-2018, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sphere and ash

Edited to add: just saw the New York Times obituary. I don't think we're going to get a clearer statement than this: "Many people naturally assumed that Mr. Thompson was, or had been, an expert cameraman himself, but such was not the case." Thanks for finding it, Andrew.

No problemo. Totally in agreement that the vast majority of Paul Thompson stamped photos were not shot by him. Still, the obit indicates that he did a shoot with Mark Twain and the Smithsonian article I linked to previously claims the copyrights for the T205 portraits alone are under his name. This is all certainly worthy of further investigation:

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