Percentage of Net Worth

conor912 · #1 07-26-2018, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMPEP

But what I haven't figured out yet is - Is that because baseball card collectors make more money than the average person in America, OR do baseball card collectors tie up a lot of their net worth in baseball cards?

The former. This hobby is going the way of the 1%. The number of long time collectors I know who are getting into non-sports as a function of affordability is staggering. The (relatively modest) baseball cards that they want to collect are no longer in their budget.

That said, my guess is that the percentage of overall net worth is pretty low, because most collector's net worths are so high.

glchen · #2 07-26-2018, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

The former. This hobby is going the way of the 1%.

I don't think this hobby is going to the 1% or has to. There are plenty of cards that are very affordable. Certainly, if a collector is looking for any modern set, you can certainly purchase the latest one at Target or any other store for ~$40. And for vintage sets, if you are collecting lower grade, it still is not difficult to complete the basic Topps sets (except 1952).

For prewar, there are a bunch of affordable cards also even for many HOFers. Affordability only gets to be an issue if you are a set collector, and there are some hugely expensive cards in your set (e.g., T206 or 1933 Goudey). However, if you are a type collector or team collector, there are still many inexpensive cards in prewar that you can still pick up.

conor912 · #3 07-26-2018, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glchen

I don't think this hobby is going to the 1% or has to. There are plenty of cards that are very affordable. Certainly, if a collector is looking for any modern set, you can certainly purchase the latest one at Target or any other store for ~$40. And for vintage sets, if you are collecting lower grade, it still is not difficult to complete the basic Topps sets (except 1952).

For prewar, there are a bunch of affordable cards also even for many HOFers. Affordability only gets to be an issue if you are a set collector, and there are some hugely expensive cards in your set (e.g., T206 or 1933 Goudey). However, if you are a type collector or team collector, there are still many inexpensive cards in prewar that you can still pick up.

I knew someone would reply with this, and of course there are still plenty of affordable options. I think the point was rather that a lot cards that had been affordable for decades have increased exponentially over the last 10 years. When you fundamentally have to change what you collect because you've been priced out, you drive people away. The same could be said for homes in some areas.

MR RAREBACK · #4 07-26-2018, 04:01 PM

I would say 66 percent of my net worth is baseball cards

Usc1 · #5 07-26-2018, 06:55 PM

I haven't been back in the hobby to long but have never seen it as an "investment." Most definitely less than 1% for me.

pokerplyr80 · #6 07-26-2018, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

I knew someone would reply with this, and of course there are still plenty of affordable options. I think the point was rather that a lot cards that had been affordable for decades have increased exponentially over the last 10 years. When you fundamentally have to change what you collect because you've been priced out, you drive people away. The same could be said for homes in some areas.

I'd be surprised if many had to fundamentally change what they collect over the last 10 years. My guess is that most cards could be found within a grade or two at their price from 10 years ago.

Leon · #7 07-27-2018, 08:11 AM

I agree, if you go down a grade or two (technically) a lot of the expensive cards are still affordable. That said, your resources can get out of whack when collecting. Mine did until they right-sized 3 yrs ago. My percentage was exponentially higher with my first collection.

.....

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I'd be surprised if many had to fundamentally change what they collect over the last 10 years. My guess is that most cards could be found within a grade or two at their price from 10 years ago.

Bored5000 · #8 07-27-2018, 08:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

The former. This hobby is going the way of the 1%. The number of long time collectors I know who are getting into non-sports as a function of affordability is staggering. The (relatively modest) baseball cards that they want to collect are no longer in their budget.

That said, my guess is that the percentage of overall net worth is pretty low, because most collector's net worths are so high.

I don't know the hobby is totally going in the direction of the one percent; it's depends what a collector wants to focus on.

But I love non-sports or cards outside the big four sports because an extreme rarity that might be a $10,000 card in baseball or a $50,000 baseball card may be a $500 card in non sports or a $1,500 non sports card. I can compete financially for some extreme rarities in non sports that I can't compete for in sports cards.

Johnny630 · #9 07-27-2018, 08:29 AM

What is shocking to me is the amount of dealers/people who buy and sell in large quantities who want nothing to do with card collecting. Back in the 80’s, 90% of the sellers were guys who actually collected cards. Now I see it the other way around 10% of the dealers collect and the remaining 90% its all business about the money.

IMO This is the reason PSA/SGC/Beckett etc are such a busy/lucrative business. To me, not counting modern guys, the passion is gone with most dealers for the cards they don’t collect it’s all about the bottom line.

I’d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80’s it was rare that a dealer wouldn’t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living as their only job.

It seems like many who buy and sell cards or are full time dealers are on this board. My question would be this
What percentage of your net worth comes from baseball card income.

It’s fun to to look back and see how this Hobby has evolved, to ponder its future.

ullmandds · #10 07-27-2018, 08:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

What is shocking to me is the amount of dealers/people who buy and sell in large quantities who want nothing to do with card collecting. Back in the 80�s, 90% of the sellers were guys who actually collected cards. Now I see it the other way around 10% of the dealers collect and the remaining 90% its all business about the money.

IMO This is the reason PSA/SGC/Beckett etc are such a busy lucrative business. To me, not counting modern guys, the passion is gone with most dealers for the cards they don�t collect it�s all about the bottom line.

I�d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80�s it was rare that a dealer wouldn�t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living.

my thoughts:

The internet has commoditized a lot of things...incuding baseball cards.

The hobby was much newer back in the 70's-80's...hence less was known...enthusiasm was high...many of the early pioneers of the hobby were still around and active...sharing. These days anyone can spend a few weeks researching everything there is online about cards and can become pretty versed on the nuances of the hobby.

2dueces · #11 07-27-2018, 08:51 AM

Less than 1%. It's just cardboard.

Mark · #12 07-27-2018, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2dueces

Less than 1%. It's just cardboard.

It makes sense to me that someone who is just starting to collect would not want to invest much in collectible cards. There are plenty of examples of similar investments that bottomed out (stamps, antique furniture, tulips, etc.) I suspect that there are a lot of long time collectors who didn't spend all that much on their collections but have discovered that their long-held piles of cards, photos, autographs, and equipment have now appreciated substantially. The may have spent 1%-5% of their income on their collections over the years, but they now find that the collections are worth 10%, 20%, or 30% of their net worth. The question is whether their other investments are sufficiently large and stable so that they aren't risking their future by holding assets that depend so much on the enthusiasms/ whims of a small group of fellow collectors.

BleedinBlue · #13 07-27-2018, 09:47 AM

I voted 0% because I don�t place a $ value on my collection. If I had to give a real answer I�d say 20%.

irishdenny · #14 07-27-2018, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I�d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80�s it was rare that a dealer wouldn�t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living as their only job.

This part of your quote brought a smile ta me...

Cause there's one specific Gentleman on Ebay that presently does Case Breaks.
He use to be a Golf Pro at sum Resort in Florida. Now he has, What I believe ta be, a Very Good Business on the Bay.

The thing is... When he first started out, he told his wife that he Wouldn't keep "ONE" Card! I guess he told her the truth, Cause he has a whole House full of'em now & there Sumbody Else's!

Johnny630 · #15 07-27-2018, 01:42 PM

Glad it brought a smile to someone face Denny :-)

Stampsfan · #16 07-27-2018, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

To me, not counting modern guys, the passion is gone with most dealers for the cards they don�t collect it�s all about the bottom line.

I�d like to do a survey of how many people who buy and sell cards for a living actually collect. Hell back in the 80�s it was rare that a dealer wouldn�t have a full time job. Now with eBay and other online platforms many dealers buy and sell for a living as their only job.

This is true for any profession. Many people get into a business or profession because they love it. Once they're in it, doing it 40, 50, 60 hours a week, it is now just a job.

Hell, at my advanced age I love to play golf in the summer and play hockey in the winter. I also know folks who have done both professionally. When they were done, they throw their equipment over a cliff (a quote to from a former NY Ranger goalie I'd met).

I still love this hobby, and my collectibles. However, if I depended on it for my livelihood, I don't think I'd love it nearly as much.

timn1 · #17 07-27-2018, 09:50 AM

I have been messing around a lot with VCP records lately, trying to develop inside info on hidden scarcities and price trends that I can use to my advantage

-

and one thing that's really clear is that many sales prices on high-grade cards were much higher - like 50-80% - before 2008 than they are now. 2007-2008 was the peak, followed by a decline for the next five years or so, and then a leveling off. The last two or three years show some mild increases. All the E card sets I've looked at so far show this trend, and some others like T204. I haven't looked at T206 and they may be an exception.

I think what's happening right now is that very high-profile cards are going through the roof, but not all high-grade cards, and there are many bargains out there, at least relative to pre-recession days.

mechanicalman · #18 07-27-2018, 09:54 AM

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

AGuinness · #19 07-27-2018, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

And the cards are more pleasant to hold in your hand and look at.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Peter_Spaeth · #20 07-27-2018, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

And it's still up 6X or maybe more from its 2012 IPO.

Johnny630 · #21 07-27-2018, 10:13 AM

Until Cobb pays quarterly dividends I won’t invest in him. At these high levels Cobb is no longer high growth.
So would says the same is true with Facebook, I disagree on the that.

Although Facebook doesn’t have a dividend, yesterday was a great time to buy.

kailes2872 · #22 07-27-2018, 10:22 AM

I ask this question as only theoretical (as my wife and I were discussing last night)...

For the high net worth folks, I ask this -

If you are covered up to 5 million on inheritance tax, and then everything above 5 million has a death tax rate of approximately 40%, then 12 million becomes 9 million really quickly (2.8 million in taxes above 5 million).

I know that cards and collectibles are assets but it becomes a little more blurry as there is not a hard and fast amount in mutual fund account that has a set tax.

If over the next 30 years, a high grade green Cobb is purchased, along with some Ruth's, Mantles, etc., and that 12 million dollars in the pile is now 9 and the 2.8 million dollar tax bill is now 1.6 million but ownership transfer has been given to the kids over time, does that help? Or is it simply changing the shape of money and in the end money, property, collectibles, whatever are tallied up and the inheritance tax is given based upon that total above 5 million?

I was using this analogy with my wife last night as a real good reason for me to up the ante in my collection in the coming years as a way to keep assets in the family instead of in Washington, but if it doesn't matter, I will need to come in at a different angle.

Thanks!

Throttlesteer · #23 07-27-2018, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And it's still up 6X or maybe more from its 2012 IPO.

As is identity theft.

I've been collecting to some extent for 40ish years. I still remember plenty of dealers in the 80's that had NO idea about the cards they were selling. Sure, they knew a T206 Cobb or 33' Goudey Ruth were big bucks. But, they would buy quality vintage cards for a song from collectors who were high on pack-ripping without any common sense. It was sad to see, given so many of these dealers couldn't pronounce "Lajoie" if they tried. I doubt they were collectors; they were all about making money.

mechanicalman · #24 07-27-2018, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And it's still up 6X or maybe more from its 2012 IPO.

Sure, but T206 Cobbs are up more than 200000x since their initial public offering.

orly57 · #25 07-27-2018, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Sure, but T206 Cobbs are up more than 200000x since their initial public offering.

I laughed audibly. 👏👏👏👏👏

Michael B · #26 07-27-2018, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

There may be disagreement about the "investment potential" of baseball cards, but I'm pretty sure that T206 Cobbs fared better than shares of Facebook yesterday.

They only lost the value they had gained in the last 2� months. It is not real value, but abstract value. There is no value until it is monetized.

Exhibitman · #27 07-27-2018, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I love non-sports or cards outside the big four sports because an extreme rarity that might be a $10,000 card in baseball or a $50,000 baseball card may be a $500 card in non sports or a $1,500 non sports card. I can compete financially for some extreme rarities in non sports that I can't compete for in sports cards.

Me too. That is one reason I soured on prewar baseball card collecting about 12-15 years ago and rarely pick up cards now. It got very frustrating to not be able to afford so much of the field.

Peter_Spaeth · #28 07-27-2018, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bored5000

I don't know the hobby is totally going in the direction of the one percent; it's depends what a collector wants to focus on.

But I love non-sports or cards outside the big four sports because an extreme rarity that might be a $10,000 card in baseball or a $50,000 baseball card may be a $500 card in non sports or a $1,500 non sports card. I can compete financially for some extreme rarities in non sports that I can't compete for in sports cards.

Yeah some of the historical non-sports cards are very hard to find, but when you do they often cost next to nothing.

bigred1 · #29 07-28-2018, 08:36 AM

After going through all these posts, I forgot what the question was, had to go back and check. About 5% for me

View Poll Results: What percentage of your net worth consists of baseball cards?
Under 1%	70	20.17%
1-5%	105	30.26%
6-10%	69	19.88%
11-25%	59	17.00%
26-50%	24	6.92%
51% or more	20	5.76%
Voters: 347. You may not vote on this poll

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