First player to reach 3000 hits not to make the HOF?

rats60 · #1 07-28-2018, 09:29 AM

If Nick Markakis makes it to 3000 hits though, will he look more like a HOFer? Look at Craig Biggio. Take away his last 2 seasons where he was a replacement level player and he has 2795 hits, a 112 OPS+, 67.2 WAR and 54.5 JAWS. Does he make the HOF? Is he better than Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich? Guys that got 2.9% and 2.6% of the HOF vote and were off the ballot in 1 year.

Rafael Palmeiro isn't in the HOF because of steroids. If Bonds or Clemens gets in, that will open the gates for other steroids guys like Palmeiro. Rafael certainly has as good of a case as Biggio if we ignore the cheating.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 07-28-2018, 09:36 AM

Other than clear steroid cases, is Sheffield the only one with 500 HR not in?

Aquarian Sports Cards · #3 07-28-2018, 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than clear steroid cases, is Sheffield the only one with 500 HR not in?

Sheffield is a clear steroid case too though.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 07-28-2018, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Sheffield is a clear steroid case too though.

I did not realize that. I thought he wasn't. I don't think he would have gotten in anyhow though.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 07-28-2018, 12:23 PM

Read Bill James on Biggio.

maniac_73 · #6 07-28-2018, 01:09 PM

In terms of HOF there is something to be said about consistency and Longevity. It may not be sexy but it's very impressive and as worthy of guys who had shorter careers and more spectacular seasons.

rats60 · #7 07-28-2018, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Other than clear steroid cases, is Sheffield the only one with 500 HR not in?

Sheffield is an admitted steroid user. He used the "clear" and the "cream" with Bonds. Fred McGriff with 493 has the most home runs by a "clean" player not in the HoF.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 07-28-2018, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Sheffield is an admitted steroid user. He used the "clear" and the "cream" with Bonds. Fred McGriff with 493 has the most home runs by a "clean" player not in the HoF.

Hard for me to see why the Crime Dog isn't of the same caliber as Dawson, Rice, Perez and Cepeda, though I haven't studied him extensively, just my impression.

nat · #9 07-28-2018, 08:31 PM

The problem is that Perez, Rice, and Cepeda were pretty bad choices for the hall. (Dawson is a step above those guys.) Perez is in because the hall has always looked kindly on good players who played for great teams. (Earle Combs, Tony Lazzeri, and so on.) Cepeda and Rice were mistakes. But basically these guys are indistinguishable from hordes of other guys, and McGriff is one of the ones who got left out. (Along with Fred Lynn, Luis Gonzalez, Ken Williams, Dale Murphy, Bob Elliot, Torii Hunter, Brian Giles, Norm Cash, Ellis Burkes, Bernie Williams, and on and on.)

As for Ichiro, he won me over on the HOF thing eventually. The more interesting question is whether he's going to get into the Japanese hall of fame. He was extraordinarily good while playing for Orix, but he came to America at 27. Most of his career has been over here. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that he goes in. Ichiro is the proof that the best Japanese players are world class baseball players. I mean, it's hard to doubt that Oh or Nagashima were world class, but Ichiro is the proof that they were. There is also some precedent here. Hideki Matsui is in the Japanese hall of fame, even though he left Japan at 29. I'd guess that Ichiro is the first player to be inducted into both halls of fame.

steve B · #10 07-28-2018, 11:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nat

The problem is that Perez, Rice, and Cepeda were pretty bad choices for the hall. (Dawson is a step above those guys.) Perez is in because the hall has always looked kindly on good players who played for great teams. (Earle Combs, Tony Lazzeri, and so on.) Cepeda and Rice were mistakes. But basically these guys are indistinguishable from hordes of other guys, and McGriff is one of the ones who got left out. (Along with Fred Lynn, Luis Gonzalez, Ken Williams, Dale Murphy, Bob Elliot, Torii Hunter, Brian Giles, Norm Cash, Ellis Burkes, Bernie Williams, and on and on.)

As for Ichiro, he won me over on the HOF thing eventually. The more interesting question is whether he's going to get into the Japanese hall of fame. He was extraordinarily good while playing for Orix, but he came to America at 27. Most of his career has been over here. If I had to guess, though, I'd say that he goes in. Ichiro is the proof that the best Japanese players are world class baseball players. I mean, it's hard to doubt that Oh or Nagashima were world class, but Ichiro is the proof that they were. There is also some precedent here. Hideki Matsui is in the Japanese hall of fame, even though he left Japan at 29. I'd guess that Ichiro is the first player to be inducted into both halls of fame.

You never saw Rice play did you?

CollectingAmericasPastime · #11 07-30-2018, 08:54 AM

I can't believe I'm reading posts that suggest even in the slightest that Ichiro is a borderline HoFer or shouldn't be a HoFer at all.

clydepepper · #12 07-28-2018, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

Sheffield is an admitted steroid user. He used the "clear" and the "cream" with Bonds. Fred McGriff with 493 has the most home runs by a "clean" player not in the HoF.

When did he admit it? I don't recall reading that...though I certainly believe he did.

rats60 · #13 07-28-2018, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

When did he admit it? I don't recall reading that...though I certainly believe he did.

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/articl...ld-2667408.php

clydepepper · #14 07-28-2018, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

https://www.sfgate.com/sports/articl...ld-2667408.php

WOW! What a petty guy bonds is! Totally unredeemable IMO.

Peter_Spaeth · #15 07-28-2018, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

If Nick Markakis makes it to 3000 hits though, will he look more like a HOFer? Look at Craig Biggio. Take away his last 2 seasons where he was a replacement level player and he has 2795 hits, a 112 OPS+, 67.2 WAR and 54.5 JAWS. Does he make the HOF? Is he better than Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich? Guys that got 2.9% and 2.6% of the HOF vote and were off the ballot in 1 year.

Rafael Palmeiro isn't in the HOF because of steroids. If Bonds or Clemens gets in, that will open the gates for other steroids guys like Palmeiro. Rafael certainly has as good of a case as Biggio if we ignore the cheating.

Well before he got to 3000 Bill James called Biggio the best player in baseball, and did a whole analysis showing why he was better than Griffey. The master of small ball.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 07-28-2018, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

If Nick Markakis makes it to 3000 hits though, will he look more like a HOFer? Look at Craig Biggio. Take away his last 2 seasons where he was a replacement level player and he has 2795 hits, a 112 OPS+, 67.2 WAR and 54.5 JAWS. Does he make the HOF? Is he better than Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich? Guys that got 2.9% and 2.6% of the HOF vote and were off the ballot in 1 year.

Rafael Palmeiro isn't in the HOF because of steroids. If Bonds or Clemens gets in, that will open the gates for other steroids guys like Palmeiro. Rafael certainly has as good of a case as Biggio if we ignore the cheating.

500 HR too. He is clearly in if baseball forgives the roids.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #17 07-28-2018, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

If Nick Markakis makes it to 3000 hits though, will he look more like a HOFer? Look at Craig Biggio. Take away his last 2 seasons where he was a replacement level player and he has 2795 hits, a 112 OPS+, 67.2 WAR and 54.5 JAWS. Does he make the HOF? Is he better than Lou Whitaker and Bobby Grich? Guys that got 2.9% and 2.6% of the HOF vote and were off the ballot in 1 year.

Rafael Palmeiro isn't in the HOF because of steroids. If Bonds or Clemens gets in, that will open the gates for other steroids guys like Palmeiro. Rafael certainly has as good of a case as Biggio if we ignore the cheating.

Biggio doesn't belong in the Hall really. Classic accumulator. I think Whitaker and Grich were both more deserving. So 3000 probably played a sizable role in getting him in. That being said, Markakis doesn't even compare all that well with Biggio so I don't think 3000 would put him over the top.

Runscott · #18 09-07-2018, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Biggio doesn't belong in the Hall really. Classic accumulator. I think Whitaker and Grich were both more deserving. So 3000 probably played a sizable role in getting him in. That being said, Markakis doesn't even compare all that well with Biggio so I don't think 3000 would put him over the top.

Is it Grich's .266 average that impresses you? He probably could have spent a few more years 'accumulating'. Whitaker 'accumulated' for 19 years as opposed to Biggio's 20, but I don't think another year would have helped much.

Peter_Spaeth · #19 09-07-2018, 10:04 PM

I really don't understand the whole Grich thing, past a point, that point being OK maybe he was a guy who was a bit better than his counting stats suggest, but a HOFer? Really?

Peter_Spaeth · #20 09-07-2018, 10:04 PM

I really don't understand the whole Grich thing, past a point, that point being OK maybe he was a guy who was a bit better than his counting stats suggest, but a HOFer? Really? Bobby Grich??????

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