1974 Topps Factory Set

tschock · #1 09-12-2018, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich Klein

I am convinced the 1973 Team Checklists were only issued in the inclusive packs and not in the series packs. I opened enough of 1973 packs in series and never saw a team checklist. I'm going from memory but I'm pretty sure I was told those Blue Team Checklists were only in those five-series "test" packs.

That does explain why those are much tougher than the 1974 counterparts.

I opened enough 1974 packs and never pulled a Washington NL from the packs and I think I opened my first packs in spring break March 1974. I also never got an Aaron until the day after he hit #715 and I thought that was just a bizarre coincidence.

I think it took me till May to get traded cards and the team checklists were also in those packs. This is all memory and 44 years later while its good its not perfect

Rich

I have 3 1974 (yes empty) boxes still from 1974. Two are designated 1-302-70-01-4 and one is 1-301-70-01-4. The "301" box is exactly the same as the "302" box except that on the box side panel facing front it has "Bonus Team Checklist Inside!". Doesn't mean they were not in the "302" box, but something changed.

I got a ton of traded cards as well, so those may have come in the "302" box or even another one after that. I don't remember pulling any Washington variation cards, so they could well have been mixed in with the San Diego boxes (or at least certain, early shipped ones).

Based on me never getting any 1973 high numbers nor blue checklists in packs, I would tend to agree with your view on those.

toppcat · #2 09-12-2018, 05:41 PM

The blue checklists being in "all 660" packs in 73 makes a ton of sense.

nolemmings · #3 09-12-2018, 07:34 PM

It may make a ton of sense, but I'm here to tell you it didn't happen. I had over 1500 cards pulled from all-660 packs in 1973, with nary a single checklist.
You may recall that this was discussed a few years ago:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=simpson

nolemmings · #4 09-12-2018, 08:19 PM

There must have been a lot hair pulling and chaos at Topps in December 1973. What I'm unclear about is why Topps felt the need to have its entire set not only proofed but nearly or entirely ready to go in December, months before they would sell it at retail.

I haven't put a great deal of research into it, but it seems that the timeline goes something like this (from a few different sources not always in precise agreement):

May, 1973-- Padres are sold by Smith, who has IRS and other financial problems
May-June, 1973-- buyer/prospective owner makes serious noise about moving the team to Washington, possibly before end of season
late Fall 1973-- City of San Diego files multiple suits, seeking stadium rent for the remainder of a long lease term--and at some point wins
September 1973--owners quoted as being against move, Bowie Kuhn advocates for D.C.
December 6, 1973-- league approves sale to Washington conditionally- conditions to be met in 15 days; NL schedule printed with Wash. D.C.
December, 1973 later-- New ownership group unable to pull it all together in view of risks/costs
December/January: League looks at keeping team in S.D under league ownership, still fishing for other local buyer in Cal; one prospect fails
January, 1974: different Washington ownership group makes a play--unsuccessful
January 25, 1974: Ray Kroc buys the team, keeping it in San Diego

What was the hurry to print before December 6, and the rush to make corrections in such uncertain circumstances?

steve B · #5 09-13-2018, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

There must have been a lot hair pulling and chaos at Topps in December 1973. What I'm unclear about is why Topps felt the need to have its entire set not only proofed but nearly or entirely ready to go in December, months before they would sell it at retail.

I haven't put a great deal of research into it, but it seems that the timeline goes something like this (from a few different sources not always in precise agreement):

May, 1973-- Padres are sold by Smith, who has IRS and other financial problems
May-June, 1973-- buyer/prospective owner makes serious noise about moving the team to Washington, possibly before end of season
late Fall 1973-- City of San Diego files multiple suits, seeking stadium rent for the remainder of a long lease term--and at some point wins
September 1973--owners quoted as being against move, Bowie Kuhn advocates for D.C.
December 6, 1973-- league approves sale to Washington conditionally- conditions to be met in 15 days; NL schedule printed with Wash. D.C.
December, 1973 later-- New ownership group unable to pull it all together in view of risks/costs
December/January: League looks at keeping team in S.D under league ownership, still fishing for other local buyer in Cal; one prospect fails
January, 1974: different Washington ownership group makes a play--unsuccessful
January 25, 1974: Ray Kroc buys the team, keeping it in San Diego

What was the hurry to print before December 6, and the rush to make corrections in such uncertain circumstances?

Lead times were a lot longer then. Plus the process was much slower than it is today. Everything had to be proofed so it was ready to go, and Topps did a LOT of proofing. Our place did maybe one photographic proof, and that was about it. Topps did several different types of proofs all the way through the design process.

The actual printing would have taken a while, but probably not months for the initial runs. Then packing would have been a bit longer. And all that would have to be timed with other products, like other sports, and whatever non- sports they were doing to fill in the gap between seasons. Hockey and basketball would have been active products, and maybe wacky packs? I forget what was out there overall. Plus printing for some non- card products.
Printing the boxes

Then they'd have to pack and ship orders. Some places do it in big batches, others do it package by package. There may have been a date that wholesalers had to wait for before shipping. Or retailers may have simply held off until the season began. Not a major issue for big chains, but the local convenience store would probably wait till the season, and for a couple other things to sell out first.

One of my friends families owned a 5+10 when I was in High school, in 1981 I convinced him that they should carry all three brands of cards. They did, but around the season opener. The local card shop had had them since I think February. The sales cycle was still pretty much the same then.

jmoran19 · #6 09-13-2018, 10:49 AM

Paul Wright created this chart for a Baseball Card News? article back in the 90's. Indicates there were 5 different types of 1974 baseball wax packs.

The raw packs vintagebreaks.com is opening on youtube are the 8 card all 660version. Washington N.L. and traded cards are included in these packs. They have also broken a graded 8 card + bonus team CL pack.

nolemmings · #7 09-14-2018, 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Lead times were a lot longer then. Plus the process was much slower than it is today. Everything had to be proofed so it was ready to go, and Topps did a LOT of proofing. Our place did maybe one photographic proof, and that was about it. Topps did several different types of proofs all the way through the design process.

The actual printing would have taken a while, but probably not months for the initial runs. Then packing would have been a bit longer. And all that would have to be timed with other products, like other sports, and whatever non- sports they were doing to fill in the gap between seasons. Hockey and basketball would have been active products, and maybe wacky packs? I forget what was out there overall. Plus printing for some non- card products.
Printing the boxes

Then they'd have to pack and ship orders. Some places do it in big batches, others do it package by package. There may have been a date that wholesalers had to wait for before shipping. Or retailers may have simply held off until the season began. Not a major issue for big chains, but the local convenience store would probably wait till the season, and for a couple other things to sell out first.

One of my friends families owned a 5+10 when I was in High school, in 1981 I convinced him that they should carry all three brands of cards. They did, but around the season opener. The local card shop had had them since I think February. The sales cycle was still pretty much the same then.

Thanks Steve. It still seems kind of baffling to me that they couldn't wait 2-3 weeks and see if the Washington thing was really likely to happen, given the lawsuits and conditions that needed to be met.

Has anyone seen a proof of sheet #5? I ask because Denny Doyle, who had been traded December 6, is shown with his new Angels team in the regular set, while Jim Mason, traded the same day, is not, and both are included in the higher numbers (#552 and #618) and Mason is shown with his new Yankee squad on the traded set. The Doyle card is a nondescript shot of him with some minor sort of airbrush job, almost certainly swapped out late from a better photo. I wonder if the proof sheet would show a different pic of Doyle. Also seems they could have corrected Mason in the regular set but chose otherwise. Since all of their "trades" were completed just 5 days after December 6, 1973, it makes you wonder why they couldn't wait another week, although maybe the plan all along was to have a traded set and they needed to fill it with players.

JollyElm · #8 09-14-2018, 02:56 PM

I'm sure their printing deadlines were very tight back then, needing to get the thing done and out before moving on to the next endeavor. They probably didn't have the luxury of waiting another week to finish up...much to our dismay decades later.

Your Doyle/Mason conundrum reminds me of how Topps treated the Jim Fregosi/Nolan Ryan trade in the 1972 set. Fregosi had his regular card and received a 'coveted' Traded card in the high series, while The Ryan Express only appeared once, as an airbrushed member of his new team, the California Angels, in the regular set. A real shame.

steve B · #9 09-15-2018, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Thanks Steve. It still seems kind of baffling to me that they couldn't wait 2-3 weeks and see if the Washington thing was really likely to happen, given the lawsuits and conditions that needed to be met.

Has anyone seen a proof of sheet #5? I ask because Denny Doyle, who had been traded December 6, is shown with his new Angels team in the regular set, while Jim Mason, traded the same day, is not, and both are included in the higher numbers (#552 and #618) and Mason is shown with his new Yankee squad on the traded set. The Doyle card is a nondescript shot of him with some minor sort of airbrush job, almost certainly swapped out late from a better photo. I wonder if the proof sheet would show a different pic of Doyle. Also seems they could have corrected Mason in the regular set but chose otherwise. Since all of their "trades" were completed just 5 days after December 6, 1973, it makes you wonder why they couldn't wait another week, although maybe the plan all along was to have a traded set and they needed to fill it with players.

I wouldn't be surprised to see proofs of Doyle both ways.

The one I've always wondered about was one I heard as a kid rumor in 74, which was the first set I really collected, aside from a bit in late 73.

Supposedly there was confusion about who would be the As manager, so the card had a question mark instead of a picture of a manager.

Al Dark was signed on Feb 20, so that shouldn't have been a problem. But there'd been some legal wrangling about Dick Williams being under contract so he couldn't manage the Yankees. (Why that wouldn't have affected the Yankees manager card the same way I have no idea, it was a 5th grade rumor. ) So maybe it's plausible?

deweyinthehall · #10 09-13-2018, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

It may make a ton of sense, but I'm here to tell you it didn't happen. I had over 1500 cards pulled from all-660 packs in 1973, with nary a single checklist.
You may recall that this was discussed a few years ago:

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...hlight=simpson

Your earlier post references a book by a Mr. Erbe in 1981 - what book is that?

toppcat · #11 09-13-2018, 11:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deweyinthehall

Your earlier post references a book by a Mr. Erbe in 1981 - what book is that?

That must be this. I have a copy and wore it out back in the day looking stuff up. It had distinct advantages over Beckett with a wider range of sets and an alphabetical checklist.

In addition, some of you you may recall I worked for Current Card Prices when it was launched. Richie Schwararoch, who owned it, ripped out pages from a copy of this book and we marked them up for the typist who put together our original lists in the 'zine. I remember calling Ralph Nozaki up and checking on certain variations as part of this process.

Vintagevault13 · #12 09-13-2018, 04:27 PM

I am thoroughly enjoying reading this thread. As a fan of the 1974 set, it is great to see this much discussion. I realize that the design and lack of rookies has not endeared this set to many. However, this thread shows that it is, at the very least, one of the more intriguing sets of the decade.

JollyElm · #13 09-13-2018, 05:03 PM

Well, I think it's time to show some cards. I love the 1974 set!!!! Here's a sampling of the cool shots...

1974a.jpg
1974b.jpg
1974c.jpg
1974d.jpg

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