Mathewson Vs. Johnson

Leon · #1 09-20-2018, 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

He also received more votes for the Hall of Fame. So, he was seen as the better pitcher during his lifetime. I have always wondered about that. Was it his low World Series ERA? 3 Shutouts in 1905? More team success? Early death? I would take WaJo over Matty.

I agree with the article though. I would take Matty over Young. Longevity means something, but not that much. Matty's ERA is a half run better than Young, better than WaJo too, No Dodger fan would take Don Sutton over Sandy Koufax. Tom Glavine wasn't better than Pedro Martinez.

Longevity means a lot more than it's getting credit for. I don't know who was best but it's hard to fault the all time win leader for having the award named after him for most wins in a season?

Dpoolem3 · #2 09-20-2018, 08:37 AM

Johnson did far more

with a much worse team

Mathewson had the benefit of playing in New York

1. Young
2. Johnson
3. Matty

Huysmans · #3 09-20-2018, 08:58 AM

Longevity mean A LOT. Young is the greatest pitcher of the era in my opinion, without question, and the award is RIGHTLY named after him.

robw1959 · #4 09-20-2018, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huysmans

Longevity mean A LOT. Young is the greatest pitcher of the era in my opinion, without question, and the award is RIGHTLY named after him.

The award was named after Cy Young in 1956 not for any of his achievements necessarily, but to commemorate his death the year before, in 1955.

rats60 · #5 09-20-2018, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

Longevity means a lot more than it's getting credit for. I don't know who was best but it's hard to fault the all time win leader for having the award named after him for most wins in a season?

I would be all for giving it to the season wins leader, but now we give it to a guy who went 13-12 over guys who went- 21-7, 19-6 & 19-9.

AGuinness · #6 09-20-2018, 01:24 PM

Why does an award have to be named after the best player (as opposed to a great player, but perhaps not the best)?
In 1999, then Commissioner Selig introduced the Hank Aaron award, given to the best hitter in each league. Was Aaron the best hitter of all time? Maybe? There are certainly others who have a case.
Someone else mentioned that the Cy Young award came about a year after his death. It was introduced by then Commissioner Frick. I'm pretty certain that Selig thought very highly of Aaron, and I speculate that Frick probably felt similarly to Young, which is very likely why both awards were, in part, created.

barrysloate · #7 09-20-2018, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AGuinness

Why does an award have to be named after the best player (as opposed to a great player, but perhaps not the best)?
In 1999, then Commissioner Selig introduced the Hank Aaron award, given to the best hitter in each league. Was Aaron the best hitter of all time? Maybe? There are certainly others who have a case.
Someone else mentioned that the Cy Young award came about a year after his death. It was introduced by then Commissioner Frick. I'm pretty certain that Selig thought very highly of Aaron, and I speculate that Frick probably felt similarly to Young, which is very likely why both awards were, in part, created.

There is also a name associated with the batting titles: It's the Tony Gwynn Award for the NL, and I believe the Rod Carew Award for the AL (I know they aren't commonly used). Both were exemplary hitters who won multiple batting titles, but nobody would confuse them with Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, or Ted Williams. One is not obligated to pick the best player ever to name an award.

AGuinness · #8 09-20-2018, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is also a name associated with the batting titles: It's the Tony Gwynn Award for the NL, and I believe the Rod Carew Award for the AL (I know they aren't commonly used). Both were exemplary hitters who won multiple batting titles, but nobody would confuse them with Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, or Ted Williams. One is not obligated to pick the best player ever to name an award.

True dat. Although I don't think that I'm going out on a limb to say that MLB couldn't have done any better picking the right player for the Roberto Clemente Award.

barrysloate · #9 09-20-2018, 03:43 PM

Agreed.

clydepepper · #10 09-21-2018, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is also a name associated with the batting titles: It's the Tony Gwynn Award for the NL, and I believe the Rod Carew Award for the AL (I know they aren't commonly used). Both were exemplary hitters who won multiple batting titles, but nobody would confuse them with Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, or Ted Williams. One is not obligated to pick the best player ever to name an award.

...and now, the contest begins for the Mario Mendoza Award...

Sean · #11 09-21-2018, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by clydepepper

...and now, the contest begins for the Mario Mendoza Award...

I'll nominate Gary Sanchez.

oldjudge · #12 09-21-2018, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sean

I'll nominate Gary Sanchez.

He does lead the majors in something......passed balls. That in itself is an amazing achievement considering he missed over forty games with injuries. I wonder if he is in the lineup for his bat(if the season ended now he would set the record for the lowest Yankee batting average, min 300 AB, EVER) or his glove (see passed ball stat). What�s left�base running? He�s the slowest guy on the team.

PiratesWS1979 · #13 09-21-2018, 05:02 PM

a!!

clydepepper · #14 09-21-2018, 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979

...and the Adam Dunn award goes to...Yoan Moncada!!

How 'bout The NICE GUY Award -

to Chris Davis for being the LEAST OFFENSIVE player.

DAVIS Slash (slush really) .171 / .246 / .302 / .548

MONCADA Slash .231 / .309 / .397 / .707

Leon · #15 09-24-2018, 12:09 PM

I agree there is no obligation to name the Most Games Won in a Year Award. It is named what it is because it makes the most sense.

And I like Johnson as a collectible, a lot. And he has the nicest grandson on Earth too!! All that and The Big Train could dress too. But it doesn't change the fact (most wins in a lifetime by a lot) on what is the best name for the most wins in a season. And to get back to topic, Johnson has seemed to be collected right above Matty but not by much. And different card issues can easily have Matty going for more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

There is also a name associated with the batting titles: It's the Tony Gwynn Award for the NL, and I believe the Rod Carew Award for the AL (I know they aren't commonly used). Both were exemplary hitters who won multiple batting titles, but nobody would confuse them with Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Rogers Hornsby, or Ted Williams. One is not obligated to pick the best player ever to name an award.

Hankphenom · #16 09-24-2018, 01:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I've always thought Walter and Matty were at the same level of collector's appeal, a notch below the big boys: Ruth, Cobb, Jackson, Robinson, who else? Mantle, maybe? Wagner, perhaps a bit because of the T-206 mystique? And that Barr-Farnman postcard is one of the WaJo greats, it was a special treat to see that set in person last year. Any idea what the p.p.c.c. (or o?) stands for? And is it Farnman or Farnham?

Leon · #17 09-27-2018, 06:42 PM

Hi Hank
It is actually a real photo used as a sample to order the postcards. It was a salesman's sample book, at auction, for ordering the postcards... or the photos, actually. This (regular sized but enlarged here) business card should help with the initials. It is on the back page.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I've always thought Walter and Matty were at the same level of collector's appeal, a notch below the big boys: Ruth, Cobb, Jackson, Robinson, who else? Mantle, maybe? Wagner, perhaps a bit because of the T-206 mystique? And that Barr-Farnman postcard is one of the WaJo greats, it was a special treat to see that set in person last year. Any idea what the p.p.c.c. (or o?) stands for? And is it Farnman or Farnham?

oldjudge · #18 09-28-2018, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I agree there is no obligation to name the Most Games Won in a Year Award. It is named what it is because it makes the most sense.

And I like Johnson as a collectible, a lot. And he has the nicest grandson on Earth too!! All that and The Big Train could dress too. But it doesn't change the fact (most wins in a lifetime by a lot) on what is the best name for the most wins in a season. And to get back to topic, Johnson has seemed to be collected right above Matty but not by much. And different card issues can easily have Matty going for more.

Great point, except the Cy Young award is not for most wins in a season, it is for the best pitcher. The two are often not synonymous.

Leon · #19 09-28-2018, 08:35 AM

My mistake, it is best pitcher and not most wins. Blame Gabby, he told me what it was

. And the photo album was 2 bucks !! I paid a little more for it so probably overpaid as usual.

Quote:

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Great point, except the Cy Young award is not for most wins in a season, it is for the best pitcher. The two are often not synonymous.

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