Did I buy a Fake Marquard Signed T206?

theshleps · #1 11-26-2018, 11:38 AM

Quote from T206 collector-I’ll be updating the signed T206 Marquard pages to remove this one, and possibly the other one done in exactly the same spot and angle described here.

I am hoping mine got from sig auctions and posted here was just the autograph the other with the photomatched card copied from as to angle, etc. since we do not have the exact presigned card located. Sometimes when I find out things like this I ewant to just sell the whole collection, depressing. I don't blame JSA. Even the Mayo clinic admits that physicians diagnosis is incorrect at least 20+% of the time. Mistakes will be made- it is just knowing that JSA, PSA etc are only opinions and much of the time by knowledgable folks.

Fred · #2 11-26-2018, 12:11 PM

You have to give SGC credit for not authenticating it, even with the JSA cert.

It will be interesting how this all shakes out.

Cliff,

If there is no investigation because Cleansweep refunded the money, then that will be sad. I would also request a refund for the money spent to have it authenticated by SGC. That only seems fair. Somehow I get the feeling you won't have any problem collecting that fee.

Marslife · #3 11-26-2018, 02:29 PM

Well�. All I can say off the bat is WOW! What a crazy story�

First of all I would like to apologize to the SGC authenticators. This thread went from what I thought would be an SGC bashing thread to a praise for their services! Thank you to SGC! Awesome job. I called them to personally leave a message of thanks.

Secondly�. What an awesome response to my �CALL FOR HELP!� I would like to thank all the members that spent time and energy in researching this card and signature, I cannot thank you enough! We may balk and chatter at one another from time to time, but when we put our collective minds together for a common cause, we cannot be stopped�. You guys are awesome and I am proud to be a member of this community!

That being said, I was heartbroken at the outcome, spending my nearly annual card budget on a forgery. Sickening�. My only hope is that this episode will help shine some light on the seedy dark corners of this hobby, and perhaps keep someone else from getting burned.

PS � Good news is that I just received and email with an apology, also advising that an error was made and restitution will be provided. I am to return the card and the LOA and the authenticators will offer me a full refund. I will update the post when restitution is made.

Thank you to Clean Sweep Auctions and JSA for offering to step up!

Mostly, thank you to the members that contributed, and this Forum for providing me the opportunity to share my story...

Much appreciated!

Cliff

CuriousGeorge · #4 11-26-2018, 02:33 PM

Now let�s see if they�re going to actually do something about this or just sweep it under the rug and allow all of the other forgeries this guy got authenticated to sell.

gregr2 · #5 11-26-2018, 02:47 PM

With the short time between when the card was sold without the signature and the time it was consigned with a signature. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the forger is. The person needs to be barred from every auction house.

ejharrington · #6 11-26-2018, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregr2

With the short time between when the card was sold without the signature and the time it was consigned with a signature. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the forger is. The person needs to be barred from every auction house.

...and arrested.

jad22 · #7 11-26-2018, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregr2

With the short time between when the card was sold without the signature and the time it was consigned with a signature. It shouldn't be too hard to figure out who the forger is. The person needs to be barred from every auction house.

Going forward that is good but what about what is already out there? Was this the first time they were able to get an item through?

Fred · #8 11-26-2018, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Now let�s see if they�re going to actually do something about this or just sweep it under the rug and allow all of the other forgeries this guy got authenticated to sell.

Right -

Is all of this going to just disappear as if nothing happened?

That would be unfortunate. Let's all "ostrich up" and bury our heads in the sand now.

How do we call out Clean Sweep and JSA? They really need to provide some insight and answers to this - at least to let us know what they're doing to prevent this crap from occurring again.

griffon512 · #9 11-26-2018, 04:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fred

Right -

Is all of this going to just disappear as if nothing happened?

That would be unfortunate. Let's all "ostrich up" and bury our heads in the sand now.

How do we call out Clean Sweep and JSA? They really need to provide some insight and answers to this - at least to let us know what they're doing to prevent this crap from occurring again.

I'm not sure why this should be an indictment of Clean Sweep. Sounds like they had one of the most reputable autograph authenticators validate the auto personally, and he made a mistake. No auction house is going to refute the opinion of a top authenticator, even knowing that person is fallible. So what has Clean Sweep done wrong here to this point?

egbeachley · #10 11-26-2018, 05:01 PM

Can it be determined from the Worthpojnt site who the buyer or seller was?

Fred · #11 11-26-2018, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffon512

I'm not sure why this should be an indictment of Clean Sweep. Sounds like they had one of the most reputable autograph authenticators validate the auto personally, and he made a mistake. No auction house is going to refute the opinion of a top authenticator, even knowing that person is fallible. So what has Clean Sweep done wrong here to this point?

James, you read that wrong. There was no indication in the post that says anything about wrong doing by either Clean Sweep or JSA. The point is that Clean Sweep and JSA should not just "ignore this". They need to go after the perp of the crime. Yes, I would believe this is a crime.

SetBuilder · #12 11-26-2018, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marslife

Well…. All I can say off the bat is WOW! What a crazy story…

First of all I would like to apologize to the SGC authenticators. This thread went from what I thought would be an SGC bashing thread to a praise for their services! Thank you to SGC! Awesome job. I called them to personally leave a message of thanks.

Secondly…. What an awesome response to my “CALL FOR HELP!” I would like to thank all the members that spent time and energy in researching this card and signature, I cannot thank you enough! We may balk and chatter at one another from time to time, but when we put our collective minds together for a common cause, we cannot be stopped…. You guys are awesome and I am proud to be a member of this community!

That being said, I was heartbroken at the outcome, spending my nearly annual card budget on a forgery. Sickening…. My only hope is that this episode will help shine some light on the seedy dark corners of this hobby, and perhaps keep someone else from getting burned.

PS – Good news is that I just received and email with an apology, also advising that an error was made and restitution will be provided. I am to return the card and the LOA and the authenticators will offer me a full refund. I will update the post when restitution is made.

Thank you to Clean Sweep Auctions and JSA for offering to step up!

Mostly, thank you to the members that contributed, and this Forum for providing me the opportunity to share my story...

Much appreciated!

Cliff

Cliff,

Great to see that you were made whole.

Unfortunately, buying a forgery has become a rite of passage in the autograph hobby. After you buy a few, your eyes will be much more calibrated and able to detect fakes.

The lesson to be learned here is to be a little more skeptical.

CuriousGeorge · #13 11-26-2018, 03:51 PM

The lesson I�ve learned here is to treat anything authenticated by Jim Spence about the same as I would by Homer Simpson. Why in the world would anyone trust any authenticatication he does when in mere minutes a member of this board was able to determine it a forgery? Are they really that lazy? I think I know the answer to my own question. While it�s wonderful the purchaser is made whole and presumably the bad guy is going to easily be able to be tracked down and hopefully prosecuted, that still leaves us with the shoddy work of Jim Spence. Should each of his authentication letters now come with a caveat that he is about 80% sure the autograph is for real?

T206Collector · #14 11-26-2018, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Unfortunately, buying a forgery has become a rite of passage in the autograph hobby. After you buy a few, your eyes will be much more calibrated and able to detect fakes.

The lesson to be learned here is to be a little more skeptical.

This is great advice. I have been burned a few times on signed T206s that I wanted to believe were real -- and then learned were not and why. A JSA LOA is usually as solid as it gets, but as I said above, on the higher value ones, I try to have more than one authenticator review the item. I usually get LOAs from JSA and then encapsulation by SGC, which is basically what you tried to do here. I haven't been burned yet by an SGC rejection of a JSA-approved item, but I do know that when I offer to include JSA LOAs with items to SGC that they don't want them. It seems they do, in fact, make an independent assessment, which I agree they deserve credit for here.

MichelaiTorres83 · #15 11-26-2018, 10:18 PM

I recall a story from a national goer where someone buying an autographed t206 from them with just the letter also had an identical problem. It was submitted to PSA for grading and they rejected it.

This person was essentially told tough crap because it came with the letter. Find it funny how when standing at a table in front of them their answer was vastly different for the exact same issue then when called out on here.

oldjudge · #16 11-27-2018, 02:42 PM

Let me ask my question in this thread also--did Steve Verkman say where the card came from? If he can identify the consignor them perhaps the ownership chain can be constructed and the forger can be found.

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