Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have, from a reliable source, the ebay buyer's id (same as the Flick, I guess). The ebay fraud folks are interested in helping too. We will see where this goes. Also, are there any bad ones on ebay right now (does anyone know)?

Do you imagine the criminal(s) who pulled this fraud are reading these threads? Do you suppose they are sleeping well tonight?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Do you imagine the criminal(s) who pulled this fraud are reading these threads? Do you suppose they are sleeping well tonight?

I certainly hope they aren't and I hope they rot in hell.

[Buythatcard]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Do you imagine the criminal(s) who pulled this fraud are reading these threads? Do you suppose they are sleeping well tonight?

It might even be possible that the actual forger is inputting his opinion into these threads.

[jad22]

Really too bad eBay bidder history on Watchcount.com was discontinued.

[Millerd33]

Are index cards from 2013 Historic Autographs (the slabbed one with the t206 and the auto under them slabbed by PSA/DNA) Safe?

[scooter729]

Originally Posted by Millerd33

Are index cards from 2013 Historic Autographs (the slabbed one with the t206 and the auto under them slabbed by PSA/DNA) Safe?

I wouldn't suspect they've been the target of this fraud artist, since those bring a much smaller dollar amount in a sale, than a signed T206. Wouldn't necessarily guarantee its authenticity 100%, but that doesn't seem to be the market for this forger.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by scooter729

I wouldn't suspect they've been the target of this fraud artist, since those bring a much smaller dollar amount in a sale, than a signed T206. Wouldn't necessarily guarantee its authenticity 100%, but that doesn't seem to be the market for this forger.

Dunno...it will be interesting to see as this unravels if this trickles down to chase cards/auto cards in modern era sets distributed by the big guys like topps?

[egri]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Dunno...it will be interesting to see as this unravels if this trickles down to chase cards/auto cards in modern era sets distributed by the big guys like topps?

I would not be surprised for this forger to go to tough signers from way back when, like what us_caine does. Not necessarily stars, but guys who died young or just disappeared after they stopped playing. He doesn't get anywhere near what an authentic one would bring, but I've still seen him turn a $5 card into a $200+ card. This new guy evidently is a better crook than us_caine, so his payoff would be correspondingly higher.

[1treasuretrove]

Originally Posted by jad22

Really too bad eBay bidder history on Watchcount.com was discontinued.

It sure makes tracking more difficult. I miss the days of goofbay too - some of the toolhaus site helps when tracking mutual feedback.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by jad22

Really too bad eBay bidder history on Watchcount.com was discontinued.

Ah, I was wondering what happened to that, thought it was just a glitch last time I tried checking. Guess not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And here I thought the only things being forged in Youngstown were iron and steel.

[Buythatcard]

Over the past 15 years, I have sold over 5,700 T206's both graded and ungraded.

I have kept a database of every single transaction which includes the date it was sold, ebay item id, and buyer's eMail address, sold amount, etc.

I never sold an autographed one but that does not mean someone did not take one of my cards and forged an autograph.

If any of those cards have a forged autograph and was sold by me when it did not have an autograph, I would be more than happy to give up the buyer's email address and date it was sold. Might help in tracking down a forger or two.

BTW, I kept track of every single transaction, not just T206's.

[autograf]

If the buyer/seller/etc did anything with PayPal, the seller can also download any transactions back for 5-6 years via PayPal. I did that recently with all of mine and stuck it in a Microsoft Access Database. It has a SIGNIFICANT amount of info on both sellers and buyers depending on how you select the data. Great functionality.

[painthistorian]

I will be speaking to Jason this morning after he returns from court...I will authorize Jason as an attorney to release the guys e bay ID(he currently sells on e bay) and I also will provide an original print out on "Feedback forum: Reply to Feedback Received) which also includes the detailed verification of the item # match that now clearly ties the winning bidder with the worchpoint summary page provided by Pat...this shows a clear connection to the "coded" e bay name seen on this post and also the bidder resides, lets guess...in OHIO.

I am wondering if this same person also is responsible for some of the fake PSA slabbed cards that were offered from same state.

[SetBuilder]

Fun fact: Girard, Ohio was the location of one of the Cliff Panezich associates.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by painthistorian

I will be speaking to Jason this morning after he returns from court...I will authorize Jason as an attorney to release the guys e bay ID(he currently sells on e bay) and I also will provide an original print out on "Feedback forum: Reply to Feedback Received) which also includes the detailed verification of the item # match that now clearly ties the winning bidder with the worchpoint summary page provided by Pat...this shows a clear connection to the "coded" e bay name seen on this post and also the bidder resides, lets guess...in OHIO.

I am wondering if this same person also is responsible for some of the fake PSA slabbed cards that were offered from same state.

Larry -- if it was mentioned earlier forgive me, but what fake PSA slabbed cards out of Ohio?

[Orioles1954]

My first thought is how dumb can a forger be? Why would he/they buy easily trackable cards rather than picking them up at a regional show. Perhaps they have changed their methods?

[HOF Auto Rookies]

Hey Howard,

I saw your post on transactions and I would like to transition my logs into what you are doing so I can help for situations like this.

How are you keeping track of your transactions?

Regards,

Brent

[hank_jp]

I recently won a T206 signed Larry Doyle batting, Lot 809 in Love of the Game Auctions. It was in a PSA/DNA Blue Label holder with an auto grade of Mint 9.
There was also an issue with another card, the Lake/Bender ghost image, authenticated by SGC, that a respected collector thought may be problematic
When the issue of fake T206 autographs started to blow up, Al Crisafulli of LOTG called me and said he was going to resubmit the card to PSA so they could look it over again in order to recertify it's authenticity, rather than just sending it out to me. He was also going to do the same thing with the SGC card.

Here is his email to me below about what transpired:

Hi Hank:

Hope all is well with you.

Just wanted to let you know the status of your items, as I heard back from PSA last night and SGC this morning.

1) PSA is not comfortable with the Doyle. The card was authenticated in 2013, as you know, and they had a different team of authenticators at that time. Their new team, Bill Corcoran and Kevin Keating, feel the signature is a forgery. As such, we are going to need to take that card out of the hobby. I will process a refund for your purchase price on that card right away.

2) On the other hand, SGC IS comfortable with the Lake/Bender. They reviewed it, they feel the same way about it that they did when they first assessed it, and so they’ve given it their blessing once again. They are returning it to me in a brand-new holder with their new flip, and I’ll send it your way ASAP with the rest of your order.

Thanks for being understanding about this. Obviously it’s very important to me that we do not contribute to fraud in this hobby in any way, and when something comes up like this, I think it’s critical to investigate it and get it right, every time.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays!

Regards,
-Al


Al Crisafulli
Love of the Game Auctions

[Peter_Spaeth]

Al is and always has been a stand up guy, IMO.

[gregr2]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Al is and always has been a stand up guy, IMO.

This is the proper handling of a bad situation. Also good to see PSA taking a new and obviously more critical look at these cards.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[oldjudge]

Hank-Do you think this means that one of the two autographs was good, or that, even with two chances, SGC can't tell a bad signature from a good one? Who authenticates autographs for SGC?

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by hank_jp

I recently won a T206 signed Larry Doyle batting, Lot 809 in Love of the Game Auctions. It was in a PSA/DNA Blue Label holder with an auto grade of Mint 9.
There was also an issue with another card, the Lake/Bender ghost image, authenticated by SGC, that a respected collector thought may be problematic
When the issue of fake T206 autographs started to blow up, Al Crisafulli of LOTG called me and said he was going to resubmit the card to PSA so they could look it over again in order to recertify it's authenticity, rather than just sending it out to me. He was also going to do the same thing with the SGC card.

Here is his email to me below about what transpired:

Hi Hank:

Hope all is well with you.

Just wanted to let you know the status of your items, as I heard back from PSA last night and SGC this morning.

1) PSA is not comfortable with the Doyle. The card was authenticated in 2013, as you know, and they had a different team of authenticators at that time. Their new team, Bill Corcoran and Kevin Keating, feel the signature is a forgery. As such, we are going to need to take that card out of the hobby. I will process a refund for your purchase price on that card right away.

2) On the other hand, SGC IS comfortable with the Lake/Bender. They reviewed it, they feel the same way about it that they did when they first assessed it, and so they’ve given it their blessing once again. They are returning it to me in a brand-new holder with their new flip, and I’ll send it your way ASAP with the rest of your order.

Thanks for being understanding about this. Obviously it’s very important to me that we do not contribute to fraud in this hobby in any way, and when something comes up like this, I think it’s critical to investigate it and get it right, every time.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays!

Regards,
-Al


Al Crisafulli
Love of the Game Auctions

Class act.

[RedsFan1941]

it's good to read that lotg once again acted responsibly in response to selling a bad card. last week we read that rea was preemptively issuing refunds. has anyone had experience with hunt and clean sweep as far as being made whole?

[irv]

Originally Posted by whitey19thcentury

I brought this up several days ago on this thread. I have bought and sold thousands of vintage signed cards over the past decade and have never seen such a big quantity of signed 1952 Topps as is out there now.

Because I mainly collect 52 Topps cards, although not signed ones, I have also noticed this lately. Someone on here said, it could be older collectors now selling off their old collections, which could very well be, but it seems odd to me that multiple old collectors would choose to do so at the same time?
I recently saved a random recently signed 52 Topps card just to see if I could find it unsigned somewhere prior but when I went into Worthpoint, there were 23 pgs of this players card so I went no further as I viewed it as a daunting task and without having any dog in the fight myself, a huge time killer.

I have also wondered, since joining this site, even if a signed card was purchased 20, 30, 40 years ago, how does one know, without provenance, if that signature is real? I have also always wondered, if the player had passed on prior to those years, what do TPAs use as their basis for comparison?

In my opinion, if the TPA's don't have/own something that acts as a certified template with undeniable provenance, then how can they 100% guarantee the sig is legit?
I think the only way of going forward from now on, and only if the test can be 100% guaranteed, carbon dating or something similar will now have to be used in order to bring some trust back into the hobby? Just my thoughts anyway.

EDIT: To add further to my thoughts above. Being as thousands and thousands of players have played, say, in just over the last century in all kinds of sports such as baseball, hockey, football and basketball, to name just 4, and you're out at a flea market, for example, and you come across a common, unheard of, forgotten about player's signed card. You purchase said signed card and you send it in to be authenticated. Please tell me what TPAs would use to authenticate the sig is 100% legit? Thinking further, even if we had carbon dating and it was proved the ink was of at least as old as the card, who's to say the sig wasn't signed back then by some kid or adult that was just goofing around playing with their card?

Originally Posted by gregr2

But isn’t that chaos what is needed? I mean, they need to get it right. Wouldn’t the hobby rather go through a time of chaos but at the end have it correct? To me, that seems like the right way to take it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I agree 100%! Without pain there can be no gain, and if this situation isn't torn down to the very bottom, then there will always be doubt within the hobby and that side of the hobby, imo, will be forever scarred.

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by hank_jp

I recently won a T206 signed Larry Doyle batting, Lot 809 in Love of the Game Auctions. It was in a PSA/DNA Blue Label holder with an auto grade of Mint 9.
There was also an issue with another card, the Lake/Bender ghost image, authenticated by SGC, that a respected collector thought may be problematic
When the issue of fake T206 autographs started to blow up, Al Crisafulli of LOTG called me and said he was going to resubmit the card to PSA so they could look it over again in order to recertify it's authenticity, rather than just sending it out to me. He was also going to do the same thing with the SGC card.

Here is his email to me below about what transpired:

Hi Hank:

Hope all is well with you.

Just wanted to let you know the status of your items, as I heard back from PSA last night and SGC this morning.

1) PSA is not comfortable with the Doyle. The card was authenticated in 2013, as you know, and they had a different team of authenticators at that time. Their new team, Bill Corcoran and Kevin Keating, feel the signature is a forgery. As such, we are going to need to take that card out of the hobby. I will process a refund for your purchase price on that card right away.

2) On the other hand, SGC IS comfortable with the Lake/Bender. They reviewed it, they feel the same way about it that they did when they first assessed it, and so they’ve given it their blessing once again. They are returning it to me in a brand-new holder with their new flip, and I’ll send it your way ASAP with the rest of your order.

Thanks for being understanding about this. Obviously it’s very important to me that we do not contribute to fraud in this hobby in any way, and when something comes up like this, I think it’s critical to investigate it and get it right, every time.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays!

Regards,
-Al


Al Crisafulli
Love of the Game Auctions

So is PSA basically saying that their authentication team was rubbish around 2013?

What does that say for all the other autos PSA authenticated at that time? Like Goudeys, Play Balls, '52 Topps, etc? That's a little unsettling that PSA admits that.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

That's a little unsettling that PSA admits that.

When you think about it, no matter what they said would have been unsettling. If they had stood by it despite proof that it's fake (which would not be unprecedented a la Gretzky Wagner), if they admitted they blew it (then how many others did they blow?), or, the easiest route which they seem to taken.... blame it on guys that are no longer there and spin it as "we are continually working to make our team stronger."

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by The Nasty Nati

That's a little unsettling that PSA admits that.

I see this a little differently. The reality is that any authenticator can only give their opinion of the item at the time they have it. They gave their opinion based upon what they see now. They are allowed to disagree with previous employees, current employees, or even change their mind. This is what an opinion is. Nothing more nothing less. The people in 2013 gave their opinion. The people now gave theirs. We should be glad that the people doing it now are giving us their honest opinion and not just restating what the previous employees did.

[LOUCARDFAN]

I am curious how the consignor of the Doyle will be compensated in a situation like this.

Originally Posted by hank_jp

I recently won a T206 signed Larry Doyle batting, Lot 809 in Love of the Game Auctions. It was in a PSA/DNA Blue Label holder with an auto grade of Mint 9.
There was also an issue with another card, the Lake/Bender ghost image, authenticated by SGC, that a respected collector thought may be problematic
When the issue of fake T206 autographs started to blow up, Al Crisafulli of LOTG called me and said he was going to resubmit the card to PSA so they could look it over again in order to recertify it's authenticity, rather than just sending it out to me. He was also going to do the same thing with the SGC card.

Here is his email to me below about what transpired:

Hi Hank:

Hope all is well with you.

Just wanted to let you know the status of your items, as I heard back from PSA last night and SGC this morning.

1) PSA is not comfortable with the Doyle. The card was authenticated in 2013, as you know, and they had a different team of authenticators at that time. Their new team, Bill Corcoran and Kevin Keating, feel the signature is a forgery. As such, we are going to need to take that card out of the hobby. I will process a refund for your purchase price on that card right away.

2) On the other hand, SGC IS comfortable with the Lake/Bender. They reviewed it, they feel the same way about it that they did when they first assessed it, and so they’ve given it their blessing once again. They are returning it to me in a brand-new holder with their new flip, and I’ll send it your way ASAP with the rest of your order.

Thanks for being understanding about this. Obviously it’s very important to me that we do not contribute to fraud in this hobby in any way, and when something comes up like this, I think it’s critical to investigate it and get it right, every time.

Thanks, and Happy Holidays!

Regards,
-Al


Al Crisafulli
Love of the Game Auctions