Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

Hankphenom · #1 12-08-2018, 07:40 PM

I think it's great that these forgeries have been exposed, and I'm sure there will be others. I love the detective work that is going into this. And I hope it scares the TPAs into tightening their procedures and getting better at what they do. It seems to me that the recent sudden influx of signed old cards might have raised some alarms with them, although I guess it would be easy to explain as the result of the rising prices bringing more of them to market. What I don't understand, though, is the chorus of those wishing to shut down the TPAs and, presumably, go back to the wild west days of yore in the 80s and 90s, when a show of any size would feature dealers with stacks of index cards and old autograph book paper with every name in sports whose autograph collectors were willing to shell out money for, many of them appearing to have similar characteristics as if drawn by the same hand. Those of us who set up at shows back then would pass those tables, shake our heads and mutter, "what are you going to do?" and just move on, resigning ourselves to the old saw that "a fool and his money are soon parted." Smarter collectors gravitated to the dealers who seemed to know what they were doing and whose offerings didn't include the aforementioned stacks of index cards. When the TPAs started coming in, the market responded quickly and positively to the idea of having experts examine autographs for authenticity before being sold, and slowly but surely it became necessary for even the most knowledgeable dealers to get their wares certified in order to be able to sell them. As their expertise became less and less important to their own business and more and more valuable to the TPAs, the best of them followed the money and became authenticators. Even among the few dealers that remain, how many of their autographs haven't been OK'd by the big four TPAs? This evolution, really a revolution, of the hobby has it's good points and bad points from a collector's perspective, and there are many good arguments to be made as to the pros and cons thereof, but it seems to me that the arguments end when the question becomes "what does the marketplace think of the advent of TPAs into the hobby?" The answer to that question is irrefutable.
So now there is this scandal uncovering mistakes made by our watchdogs, following on other scandals in the past, and surely preceding more to come. We've all chuckled over the incidences of TPAs rejecting pieces that happened to be accompanied by their own prior LOAs, or turning down autographs that had just been signed and witnessed ten minutes earlier at the same show, or differences of opinion between the so-called experts themselves. These, and other such indicators of a lack of perfection in the process we rely upon and pay for and particularly in the infallibility of those trusted with implementing it should rightly give us pause and question whether this really is the best system for assuring that we are getting what we think we are. But having lived through the evolution of the hobby to where we are today, I would ask two questions of those who advocate scrapping this system and going back to the freewheeling times of the past: First, tell me how many bad autographs you think have been slabbed or given LOAs by the big boy TPAs compared to those that are good? Give me a percentage. And secondly, describe to me a system that does a better job of weeding out forgeries and providing confidence to the average Joe collector that he's getting what he's paying for?

perezfan · #2 12-08-2018, 08:04 PM

Have any of the 3rd Party Authenticators responded to any of this? We've heard a couple of responses from Auction Houses, but nothing from any of the TPAs involved (to my knowledge anyway... please correct me if I'm wrong).

How do we really know how seriously they are taking this matter? Historically they've tended to silently brush these things under the rug, and let the passing of time lessen the severity. Does anyone know what measures or safeguards they are planning to implement as a result of this?

Some of those forgeries look really sketchy, and after the reveals, I was shocked to see that many of those ever passed. Especially the one with the highest dollar value (Baker). Even if they won't address it here on net54, I'd love to see some type of press release or announcement posted on their own websites. Something to indicate new action being taken, in order to re-instill confidence among their customer base.

But frankly (and unfortunately), I don't see that happening anytime soon.

chalupacollects · #3 12-08-2018, 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Have any of the 3rd Party Authenticators responded to any of this? We've heard a couple of responses from Auction Houses, but nothing from any of the TPAs involved (to my knowledge anyway... please correct me if I'm wrong).

How do we really know how seriously they are taking this matter? Historically they've tended to silently brush these things under the rug, and let the passing of time lessen the severity. Does anyone know what measures or safeguards they are planning to implement as a result of this?

Some of those forgeries look really sketchy, and after the reveals, I was shocked to see that many of those ever passed. Especially the one with the highest dollar value (Baker). Even if they won't address it here on net54, I'd love to see some type of press release or announcement posted on their own websites. Something to indicate new action being taken, in order to re-instill confidence among their customer base.

But frankly (and unfortunately), I don't see that happening anytime soon.

I don't know how serious the TPG's are taking this though if you think back to the last year or so I remember quite a few threads on this board where collectors were complaining that they were rejecting many more autographs than in the past. Having no skin in this part of the game myself it seems the TPG's may have had an inkling that something was off but just kept taking in the submissions and then rejecting them - keep the money flowing...

bnorth · #4 12-08-2018, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

I don't know how serious the TPG's are taking this though if you think back to the last year or so I remember quite a few threads on this board where collectors were complaining that they were rejecting many more autographs than in the past. Having no skin in this part of the game myself it seems the TPG's may have had an inkling that something was off but just kept taking in the submissions and then rejecting them - keep the money flowing...

Do the TPGs still charge you when they reject the auto. I know PSA will refund your cash if they don't slab your card. Unless you are known to send in a lot of bad cards. Then they will charge you for the bad cards even though they don't slab them.

vthobby · #5 12-08-2018, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Do the TPGs still charge you when they reject the auto. I know PSA will refund your cash if they don't slab your card. Unless you are known to send in a lot of bad cards. Then they will charge you for the bad cards even though they don't slab them.

Yes they do. It's quite a racket really!

Mike

drcy · #6 12-09-2018, 01:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Yes they do. It's quite a racket really!

Mike

Actually, you should want an expert to be paid to make an assessment of the item (real, fake, identity, age, new, old, whatever). It wouldn't be good if he was paid, or paid differently, depending on what is the decision. That's a way to corrupt the opinion process. If that's the way card grading/authenticating or anything is done, it's wrong.

I don't formally examine items anymore, but if I am paid I'm being paid to examine the item and give an assessment as to what it is. I'm being paid for my expertise (and time), and it's the same expertise involved in identifying a real item as it is fake. Obviously, for the collector, auction house or museum, being informed that something is a modern reproduction or fake is valuable information.

steve B · #7 12-09-2018, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

Actually, you should want an expert to be paid to make an assessment of the item (real, fake, identity, age, new, old, whatever). It wouldn't be good if he was paid, or paid differently, depending on what is the decision. That's a way to corrupt the opinion process. If that's the way card grading/authenticating or anything is done, it's wrong.

I don't formally examine items anymore, but if I am paid I'm being paid to examine the item and give an assessment as to what it is. I'm being paid for my expertise (and time), and it's the same expertise involved in identifying a real item as it is fake. Obviously, for the collector, auction house or museum, being informed that something is a modern reproduction or fake is valuable information.

Except you'd hope someone who is an expert would go easy on someone who sent in a really bad fake.

My one experience with stamps was at the international show in 2006. They had some experts manning an "antiques roadshow" sort of booth with a 2 item limit. I brought a couple I'd spent a bunch of time figuring out what was up with them. One I felt was good, the other not so good. (Genuine item, but fake perforations to make it an expensive item instead of a fairly cheap one. )

The time it took him to tell after I said I was pretty confident about one but not the other and handed them to him was well under a minute for both combined. It was good to know I'd been right even if it did take me much longer to reach the same conclusion. I've since sent the real one in for an actual certificate.

In the case of autographs, being paid what they ask on a difficult one isn't really all that expensive. But I'd hope is someone sent in an obviously pre printed or rubber stamped Ruth or something they wouldn't still charge the high fee.

rats60 · #8 12-09-2018, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

Do the TPGs still charge you when they reject the auto. I know PSA will refund your cash if they don't slab your card. Unless you are known to send in a lot of bad cards. Then they will charge you for the bad cards even though they don't slab them.

PSA charges you if they slab the card or not. The only time they don't is if the card is factory cut larger or smaller. If you send them a fake or altered card, you are charged. If you send them a fake autograph, they charge you. SGC and BGS always charge you.

cor3y7 · #9 12-09-2018, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rats60

PSA charges you if they slab the card or not. The only time they don't is if the card is factory cut larger or smaller. If you send them a fake or altered card, you are charged. If you send them a fake autograph, they charge you. SGC and BGS always charge you.

The only instance when you are NOT charged for a "failed" autograph authentication if they are unable to render an opinion. In my personal experience, this has been in instances when the signature was too light for them to judge. I have been refunded my authentication fees in these instances.

uniship · #10 12-09-2018, 09:54 AM

At the risk of getting publicly flogged, may I dare ask if the known forger has been identified for certain yet?

rainier2004 · #11 12-08-2018, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I think it's great that these forgeries have been exposed, and I'm sure there will be others. I love the detective work that is going into this. And I hope it scares the TPAs into tightening their procedures and getting better at what they do. It seems to me that the recent sudden influx of signed old cards might have raised some alarms with them, although I guess it would be easy to explain as the result of the rising prices bringing more of them to market. What I don't understand, though, is the chorus of those wishing to shut down the TPAs and, presumably, go back to the wild west days of yore in the 80s and 90s, when a show of any size would feature dealers with stacks of index cards and old autograph book paper with every name in sports whose autograph collectors were willing to shell out money for, many of them appearing to have similar characteristics as if drawn by the same hand. Those of us who set up at shows back then would pass those tables, shake our heads and mutter, "what are you going to do?" and just move on, resigning ourselves to the old saw that "a fool and his money are soon parted." Smarter collectors gravitated to the dealers who seemed to know what they were doing and whose offerings didn't include the aforementioned stacks of index cards. When the TPAs started coming in, the market responded quickly and positively to the idea of having experts examine autographs for authenticity before being sold, and slowly but surely it became necessary for even the most knowledgeable dealers to get their wares certified in order to be able to sell them. As their expertise became less and less important to their own business and more and more valuable to the TPAs, the best of them followed the money and became authenticators. Even among the few dealers that remain, how many of their autographs haven't been OK'd by the big four TPAs? This evolution, really a revolution, of the hobby has it's good points and bad points from a collector's perspective, and there are many good arguments to be made as to the pros and cons thereof, but it seems to me that the arguments end when the question becomes "what does the marketplace think of the advent of TPAs into the hobby?" The answer to that question is irrefutable.
So now there is this scandal uncovering mistakes made by our watchdogs, following on other scandals in the past, and surely preceding more to come. We've all chuckled over the incidences of TPAs rejecting pieces that happened to be accompanied by their own prior LOAs, or turning down autographs that had just been signed and witnessed ten minutes earlier at the same show, or differences of opinion between the so-called experts themselves. These, and other such indicators of a lack of perfection in the process we rely upon and pay for and particularly in the infallibility of those trusted with implementing it should rightly give us pause and question whether this really is the best system for assuring that we are getting what we think we are. But having lived through the evolution of the hobby to where we are today, I would ask two questions of those who advocate scrapping this system and going back to the freewheeling times of the past: First, tell me how many bad autographs you think have been slabbed or given LOAs by the big boy TPAs compared to those that are good? Give me a percentage. And secondly, describe to me a system that does a better job of weeding out forgeries and providing confidence to the average Joe collector that he's getting what he's paying for?

Well Hank, I have no idea as to your questions. But I do want to comment on the "wild west" days preTPGs.

They were wild, mail order w/o ever seeing the card, dealers offer 40% on yours cards, get home later to find the smallest pinhole in your prized find of the day, etc. It was also pre-internet as well and I think a lot of things would have changed simply with that, eBay was a HUGE advance for the hobby at the time.

We also spent much more time educating ourselves, digging through piles of cards and looking at others cards just for the sake of looking. Now, the TPGs have knocked down that barrier of entry bringing more into the hobby which is always a good thing.

A decent chuck of folks are circling back though, raw sets being built in binders seems more popular now than a few years ago. People are buying the card more than the holder relatively speaking.

A mesh of the wild west days learning hobby lessons mixed with the technology and ability to interact with each other today would be perfect to me. Treat the TPGs as an opinion, but you owe it to yourself to educate yourself, hell, that's the fun of it I thought. In the end though us collectors are probably just as knowledgeable if not more than a TPG, that's also a good thing.

Hankphenom · #12 12-08-2018, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rainier2004

Well Hank, I have no idea as to your questions. But I do want to comment on the "wild west" days preTPGs.

They were wild, mail order w/o ever seeing the card, dealers offer 40% on yours cards, get home later to find the smallest pinhole in your prized find of the day, etc. It was also pre-internet as well and I think a lot of things would have changed simply with that, eBay was a HUGE advance for the hobby at the time.

We also spent much more time educating ourselves, digging through piles of cards and looking at others cards just for the sake of looking. Now, the TPGs have knocked down that barrier of entry bringing more into the hobby which is always a good thing.

A decent chuck of folks are circling back though, raw sets being built in binders seems more popular now than a few years ago. People are buying the card more than the holder relatively speaking.

A mesh of the wild west days learning hobby lessons mixed with the technology and ability to interact with each other today would be perfect to me. Treat the TPGs as an opinion, but you owe it to yourself to educate yourself, hell, that's the fun of it I thought. In the end though us collectors are probably just as knowledgeable if not more than a TPG, that's also a good thing.

I agree everything in your post. Every collector SHOULD do it their way, and not treating the TPAs as gods is not only rational but healthy. Also, many things about the old days really were better: cards looked much better before slabs, and shows with dealers are more fun than auctions and Ebay. As I said, though, for the "average Joe collector" with a job and a family and limited time but who loves collecting, the TPAs are a godsend and many of them wouldn't be participating without the relative assurance they provide.

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