Trimming Frauds Revealed | How Does It Impact Vintage???

[SetBuilder]

Cue the "this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud" comment in 3.....2.....1.....

[egbeachley]

Wow. Over 3,000 posts and the evidence keeps coming.

I wonder if ebay has their old servers with auction scans from 1998.

[chalupacollects]

"I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on how this scandal relates to vintage. Would shaving 1/64th an inch off a few sides of a vintage card increase the price dramatically? Do you think that TPGs would be more or less likely to spot vintage trimming?"


The 1/64th inch trim is to be able to beat the TPG's over/under tolerance for measuring the size of the card. If a modern card measures 3 1/2" X 2 1/2" than according to the TPG's the tolerance for the card not being the exact measurement of the size is 1/32"

So if your card is off by less than 1/32" it is ok with them and considered an acceptable manufacture's tolerance...

If not it gets either a miscut or N6 designation (minimum size requirement)

And yes a trim that is real good that would get past the TPG's would theoretically make the card more valuable...

[iowadoc77]

this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

[bigfish]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

+1

[Leon]

I tried reading the summary and it was too long. We need a summary of the summary!! Trimmed cards suck and it is not an exact science in determining it, imo.

[Bpm0014]

I have a raw T206 set. A small percentage are beaters. But I feel like you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I tried reading the summary and it was too long. We need a summary of the summary!! Trimmed cards suck and it is not an exact science in determining it, imo.

Super short version. A few more of the 1000's of scammers got pointed out. Everyone says what they collect has little or no fraud involved, they are all wrong. Little to nothing will be done to the scammers and in little to no time no one will care.

[egbeachley]

Originally Posted by Leon

I tried reading the summary and it was too long. We need a summary of the summary!! Trimmed cards suck and it is not an exact science in determining it, imo.

Summary of the Summary:

A key basketball card is a LeBron Exquisite of which 99 were made. Many of the high grade ones have prior auction scans that show damage that was “removed” by micro-trimming (like the T206 autograph scam identified here). A specific card numbered 87/99 was identified and everyone who touched it denied trimming it including a key individual who stated he bought it from a collection in 2014.....then an old screenshot shows the untrimmed version for sale by this individual in 2013. Further tracking finds this individual hiring a Cal-Berkeley student to modify an industrial paper trimmer to remove exactly 1/64 inches.

The ad may have been from another person as it was hard to follow.

[Marckus99]

I hope you deep pocket guys keep getting burned.
Love it.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

"I'd love to know everyone's thoughts on how this scandal relates to vintage. Would shaving 1/64th an inch off a few sides of a vintage card increase the price dramatically? Do you think that TPGs would be more or less likely to spot vintage trimming?"


The 1/64th inch trim is to be able to beat the TPG's over/under tolerance for measuring the size of the card. If a modern card measures 3 1/2" X 2 1/2" than according to the TPG's the tolerance for the card not being the exact measurement of the size is 1/32"

So if your card is off by less than 1/32" it is ok with them and considered an acceptable manufacture's tolerance...

If not it gets either a miscut or N6 designation (minimum size requirement)

And yes a trim that is real good that would get past the TPG's would theoretically make the card more valuable...

Can you tell if a card has been trimmed recently versus a card that was cut short from the factory? At least PSA thinks they can. They reject cards for min size (factory cut small) and trimmed. For the 1st they don't charge you a grading fee, but for altered they do charge you. I am not sure on the others if the differentiate between the two or just call everything small trimmed.

[doug.goodman]

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

[iowadoc77]

The National was jam packed with "commodity brokers" of cards and there was plenty of action at their tables with people handing across their PSA 10s and BGS 9.5s and very few were looking at anything other than the flip, and especially the subgrades for the BGS. Then they would spit out a number and a transaction would either happen or the person who brought the card would go to the next table and the exact same thing would happen. Over and over and over. No "nice for the grade". No "great eye appeal". Only the almighty flip. And the grading companies know this and thrive on this. And why wouldn't they. Tom Brady Contenders 9 vs 10- not a lot of difference in condition, but a big flippin difference in price!
And this isn't going anywhere anytime soon. The action at the National was at these tables. By far!
I like my low and midgrade collection. I couldn't afford most of the cards i have in high grade. But to each their own. There isn't a right or wrong way to do this, just different opinions. But popular opinion favors the flip

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

+1

[Peter_Spaeth]

Like it, or him, or not, David Hall certainly read the tea leaves very well when he started all this.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

Happily, most people on this board aren't one of these. Most people here are just collector-types who like honest wear.

[AGuinness]

What amazes me about both the T206 forgeries and this trimming scandal is that, to the best of my knowledge, no TPG has publicly addressed it in any way. I would have thought at least one might have issued a statement to say that they're doing the best they can, going to be more diligent, etc., even if it is just hot air. But their silence probably says more than any statement would, including that they expect these revelations to blow over, perhaps.

And FWIW, the BO board has approximately 40,000 members while this board has approximately 10,000. I wonder if those numbers reflect the general collecting population when it comes to vintage vs modern cards...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

The people who buy holders instead of cards, and I include all purchasers of hugely overpriced high number opinions by the people who get paid for their opinions, deserve everything they get.

That market is a different market than the one most of us are in (although ours is affected) and they will ignore the truth and continue selling among themselves.

The Gretzky Wagner is my proof.

Doug "Fuck 'em" Goodman

A big +1 as to those that buy the holder instead of the card. Especially as to newer cards, where thousands exist in higher grades, there is no way that the premium price of a "10" can be justified over that of an "8" or even a "7" from the perspective of the actual differences in the quality of the cards.

Right on,

Larry

[egbeachley]

The only way this gets everyone’s attention is if ESPN does a write-up on this scandal. It’s possible since it indirectly involves LeBron and the numbers thrown out are $100K or more.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

A big +1 as to those that buy the holder instead of the card. Especially as to newer cards, where thousands exist in higher grades, there is no way that the premium price of a "10" can be justified over that of an "8" or even a "7" from the perspective of the actual differences in the quality of the cards.

Right on,

Larry

True, the way you frame the inquiry, but as we have discussed here many times that's entirely beside the point. The flip is the commodity that is being bought and sold, not the card.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Cue the "this is why I collect beaters instead because you get more cards for the money and you usually don't have to worry about fraud" comment in 3.....2.....1.....

Cue the “I have lots of money in high grade slabbed cards so I better proactively denigrate those who might question the underlying assumptions about the industry” comments.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Cue the “I have lots of money in high grade slabbed cards so I better proactively denigrate those who might question the underlying assumptions about the industry” comments.

How many times did we see that in the T206 thread alone.