Are the "T213-1" (1910 COUPON) cards really T206's ? ....I think so....What say you ?

tedzan · #1 01-02-2019, 11:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I think the 1910 timeline is important in this discussion as several people have stated that it's the main the reason they think the T213-1's should be included in the T206 set.

I have been searching here and other places and everything I found about the 1910 date is based on the fact that they're all 350 only subjects which isn't true

and I will explain this and provide evidence tomorrow because it will require a lengthy post.

In the meantime I have a question for you.

There isn't a single minor league player in the T213-1 set does any other back with 350 only subjects exclude all of the minor league players?

Also you say the super prints were supposed to be 350 only but ALC
changed their mind on them which I disagree with but either way
the fact is they're not a 350 only subject.

Pat

1st..the 48 card arrangement of the Major Leaguers in the "T213-1" set were printed during an American Litho's early press run of the 350-only series T206's.
The timeline of this printing is in the Spring of 1910. This timeline is reinforced by the fact that 40 of these subjects were NOT printed with POLAR BEAR backs.
The initial POLAR BEAR press runs started in the Summer of 1910. American Litho printed 138 subjects of the 350-only series with the POLAR BEAR backs.

2nd..In the 150 series press runs, American Lithographic printed 34 different Southern Leaguers (SL)�.16 of which represent the Southern Association. Then in
the 350 series press runs, ALC expanded the SL sub-set to 48 subjects....20 of which represent the Southern Association. The 4 additional Southern Association
subjects are Bill Hart, "Hub" Hart, Lentz and Rockenfeld. This fact is important, as it clearly sets a Spring 1910 timeline for the print run of the "T213-1" cards.

3rd..42 of the 48 subjects are absolutely 350-only series subjects. This fact is certain since these cards were subsequently printed with AB350 (frame)..BL350..
CY 350..DRUM 350 backs (circa Summer 1910). And, you have to realize that the 6 super-prints were originally printed in this early 350-only series press run
together with these other 42 subjects.
The 6 super-prints, of course, were also printed with the A-B-C-D pattern. It wasn't until the SOVEREIGN 350 "apple green" print run (circa Fall 1910) that the
6 super-prints were then extended into the 350/460 series.

It appears to me that your dogmatic mind-set is preventing you from understanding this sequence of events.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #2 01-03-2019, 10:18 AM

Honestly Ted what do you expect when you start off a thread calling people
naysayers and uniformed and accuse them of misleading just because their
opinion is different from yours. I am amazed at how you dodge questions
like a mongoose dodging a cobra and spin your answers though.

I was responding to your unedited post before you "corrected your typo"
so I'll continue using your original post.

img839.jpg

1st - This is different than your original reason but anyway there
are 67 Polar Bear no prints and all of them are 350 only subjects. Of
those 67 subjects 51 are major league subjects and only 16 are minor
league subjects which relates to my second response/question to you.
So the amount of PB no prints in the Coupons isn't surprising the main fact
is some of them were printed with PB backs.

2nd I stated minor leaguers not southern leaguers and the
question was are there any other backs that were printed with the
350 only subjects in the T206 set that has no minor league subjects
in it?

3rd I agree that 42 of the 48 subjects are 350 only subjects and
I never said they weren't you originally said all 68 were 350 only subjects
and they're not. 350 only means those subjects were only printed on 350
series backs 34 of the southern leaguers were printed with Hindu backs
in the 150 series and the super prints were printed with 350-460 and
460 backs.

Exhibitman · #3 01-03-2019, 10:27 AM

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

tedzan · #4 01-03-2019, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

Adam

I appreciate your comment.....I did not intend to delve into all this "nitty-gritty regarding T206 / 1910 COUPON stuff.

Sometimes I feel like I am in a courtroom scenario on this forum responding to this continuous "grilling"

I've posted my theories on Net54 regarding T206's (and the like) since 2005. Most of them have withstood the test of time.

Many people like them, and then, some others don't.....Que sera, sera

Happy New Year, guy.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sean · #5 01-03-2019, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

It is starting to sound like a cable news show where the liberal and conservative repeat talking points at one another.

Pat R · #6 01-03-2019, 12:36 PM

Ted, I am at fault here for getting baited in by your underhanded comments.
You used to do the same thing to Tim Cathey but he was always respectful
and classy with his responses I wish I could handle it the same way but
admittedly I can't.

Tim was an asset to this forum and it's a shame he is no longer active here.

For anyone that is new to the forum in the past few years and interested in
the T206 set Tim has a great knowledge about the set that he shared in his
posts and I suggest you check some of them out using his profile.

http://www.net54baseball.com/member.php?u=193#stats

Bill77 · #7 01-03-2019, 01:33 PM

Just a crazy thought I had, but if say Coupon and Red Cross cards been printed with gold borders like T205 cards would the brown captions be easier to place as T206 cards or would their hypothetical gold border cards also be excluded from the T205 set?

And yes I know that no such gold bordered cards exist with coupon and red cross backs. I just think that part of the reason for those two sets being separated in part has to do with the exclusion from the T205 set. I also think that T213, T214, and T215 should have been just simply one set named something like the blue caption set, but that may just be me over simplifying things.

tedzan · #8 01-03-2019, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

Ted, I am at fault here for getting baited in by your underhanded comments.
You used to do the same thing to Tim Cathey but he was always respectful
and classy with his responses I wish I could handle it the same way but
admittedly I can't.

Tim was an asset to this forum and it's a shame he is no longer active here.

For anyone that is new to the forum in the past few years and interested in
the T206 set Tim has a great knowledge about the set that he shared in his
posts and I suggest you check some of them out using his profile.

http://www.net54baseball.com/member.php?u=193#stats

Come on Pat, this is quite laughable: "getting baited in by your underhanded comments."

I have never, ever INITIATED negative comments against you. That's not my style. Yes, I may have responded with some remarks, and only because you have numerous times
on this forum called me a liar.

But, so did your two "buddies" Rivera and Cathey.

For years these two guys were very appreciative of my research into the T206 set. They would regularly pick my brain regarding T206's. Hey, I could bring up many Net54 posts
dating back to 2006 as evidence of this. And then, suddenly, in 2012 they turned on me.

I was especially disappointed in Jim Rivera. For many years I sold (or traded) him many, many rare back T206's at the Philly Show. When I got BROAD LEAF's, EPDG's, HINDU's,
LENOX, etc., I'd save them for him.
Jim thought he would give it a try being a dealer at the Philly Show, so I gladly allowed him to share my booth (circa 2009-2010). I would advertise "the Jim & Ted team" set-up
at Booth #408. We had fun "Talkin T206's" for hours at the Show. I met his family and he met my wife. I recall one time when a "walk-in" brought us a bunch of T206's. I started
sorting them out according to the Series they were in. One card in this lot was a PIEDMONT42 Wiltse (cap). I quickly recognized it as one of only 9 subjects known in the 460-only series....Jim was really impressed.
Oh well, Jim unfortunately showed me how "appreciative" he was ! !

So, that's the story Pat. I could tell you much more, but I don't think you want to hear it. Nor do the most of the members of this forum.

Good bye.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #9 01-04-2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Come on Pat, this is quite laughable: "getting baited in by your underhanded comments."

I have never, ever INITIATED negative comments against you. That's not my style. Yes, I may have responded with some remarks, and only because you have numerous times
on this forum called me a liar.
But, so did your two "buddies" Rivera and Cathey.

For years these two guys were very appreciative of my research into the T206 set. They would regularly pick my brain regarding T206's. Hey, I could bring up many Net54 posts
dating back to 2006 as evidence of this. And then, suddenly, in 2012 they turned on me.

I was especially disappointed in Jim Rivera. For many years I sold (or traded) him many, many rare back T206's at the Philly Show. When I got BROAD LEAF's, EPDG's, HINDU's,
LENOX, etc., I'd save them for him.
Jim thought he would give it a try being a dealer at the Philly Show, so I gladly allowed him to share my booth (circa 2009-2010). I would advertise "the Jim & Ted team" set-up
at Booth #408. We had fun "Talkin T206's" for hours at the Show. I met his family and he met my wife. I recall one time when a "walk-in" brought us a bunch of T206's. I started
sorting them out according to the Series they were in. One card in this lot was a PIEDMONT42 Wiltse (cap). I quickly recognized it as one of only 9 subjects known in the 460-only series....Jim was really impressed.
Oh well, Jim unfortunately showed me how "appreciative" he was ! !

So, that's the story Pat. I could tell you much more, but I don't think you want to hear it. Nor do the most of the members of this forum.

Good bye.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Ted, I pointed out your initial negative comment. In post #68 you said I was
uninformed and misleading people. The uniformed and misleading information
you referred to was based on your opinion not a fact so your comments were
absolutely negative.

I have been posting on here for 8+ years and we have had many heated
arguments but I have never called you a liar. And to be clear
I'm not calling you a liar now either I'm merely saying you're wrong.

I'm sure there are several people saying here we go again but I think I
have the right to defend myself when you say I called you a liar several
times when it never happened not once.

Now I ask you something you ask me all the time show me proof.

Show me where I made a negative comment towards you prior to post #68
and show me a post of mine where I called you a liar.

I expect silence when you can't come up with proof but I think owe you it
to me to respond when you accuse me of calling you a liar.

DixieBaseball · #10 01-04-2019, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Are anyone else's eyes starting to glaze over? This is like reading tax code.

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

Pat R · #11 01-05-2019, 05:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DixieBaseball

LOL...

The 20 Southern Leaguer's are not included in the Type 2 or Type 3 Set. That is one glaring difference in the the Type 1's vs the Type 2 & 3's. Obviously the dates are different and the 20 Type 1 Southern Leaguer's are identical to the T206 players from 1909-11, yet not included in the 1914 & 1919 Coupon sets. If you take for example the 4 SL Nashville players (Bay,Bernhard,Ellam,Perdue) from the T206 set, they match spot on to the Type 1 Coupon set, but when you get into the Type 2 1914 Coupons, Nashville players change over to Al Bridwell & Gabby Street & same for Type 3 Coupons as they feature Al & Gabby. It's like this with other players from SL teams and that makes a distinction between the 20 SL featured in Coupon that were offered in the American Litho / ATC brands later named - T206.

Also, as for the New Orleans Times Picayune, there was a series of Coupon Advertisements in the 1909-10 papers depicting different Sportsmen scenarios, like hunting, horse racing, sporting events, etc. The pack is on the advertisement with T206 style cards showing and players names. One such advertisement (that I own), depicts 3 Southern Leaguer's coming out of the top of the pack. When I have time I will have to dig up the Newspaper as I don't have it scanned and its buried in a dry dark place. The Coupon Ad's were run for a handful of months around the 1909-10 time frame.

This is what I'm waiting to see I asked where the 1910 dating came from
and I was told a newspaper clipping but no one could show a coupon ad
that mentioned the cards and I couldn't find where one was posted. All of the ads that I've seen are Old Mill and Hindu. There are
26 different Old Mill ads that I know of and each of them has one that mentions Texas League players and one that Doesn't.

1-4.jpg 5-8.jpg
9-12.jpg 13-16.jpg
17-20.jpg 21-24.jpg
25-26.jpg

Pat R · #12 01-05-2019, 05:28 AM

The ads came out small here's a larger version of one.

1.jpg

tedzan · #13 01-05-2019, 06:01 AM

Tony and Jeremy

I really appreciate your posts. Both of you have amplified on a lot of factors which I have presented here in my earlier posts.

Jeremy....it would be great if you can show us your New Orleans Times Picayune papers with the Coupon Advertisements (1909-1910 )
depicting different Sportsmen scenarios.

Thanks again,

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Pat R · #14 01-05-2019, 06:03 AM

Here's a couple of Hindu Ads both picture Southern League players but only
one mentions them.

img653.jpg

img654.jpg

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