Mariano

packs · #1 01-23-2019, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ricky

I have to agree. Rivera was arguably the best closer ever, but the first unanimous selection ever? Should not have been. Twenty writers left Willie Mays off their ballots. Nine left Hank Aaron off. Ridiculous. The other thing to take into account is, had Rivera been just as good, but had come up with the Milwaukee Brewers or San Diego Padres and spent his career there instead of a dominant team surrounding him like the Yankees, would he have recorded 652 saves? Would he have had the same number of opportunities? How would that have affected the way he's regarded?

If you watched Mariano's career and all you took away from it was a number of saves, I am sincerely sorry you missed out on so much more. The if and but argument over what other teams he might have played for misses out entirely on the fact that on the biggest stage in the game for the biggest team in the game he excelled to a degree that made him the greatest of all time. How can you discount something like that? Do you think it could have been just anyone out there?

Ricky · #2 01-23-2019, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

If you watched Mariano's career and all you took away from it was a number of saves, I am sincerely sorry you missed out on so much more. The if and but argument over what other teams he might have played for misses out entirely on the fact that on the biggest stage in the game for the biggest team in the game he excelled to a degree that made him the greatest of all time. How can you discount something like that? Do you think it could have been just anyone out there?

As I said, Mariano was arguably the best closer of all time. I saw his entire career and he was phenomenal and well deserving of the Hall. I do think that who you play for does affect how you are regarded and being on a dynastic team allowed him to excel and show off his talent in ways that, had he been on a lesser team, wouldn't have happened. Throughout Hank Aaron's career, and I remember this well, up until the very late 1960s, he was extremely underrated, never garnering the fame or popularity of Mays or Mantle, despite racking up dominant numbers season after season. The difference? They were, in some ways, flashier and more importantly, they were in New York City, Aaron was in Milwaukee. Rivera also benefits from the Big Stage that is New York City and a legendary franchise like the Yankees.

packs · #3 01-23-2019, 10:15 AM

A benefit isn't really a benefit if you can't take advantage of it. Like I said, that argument unfairly discounts what he did on the field. He was on the stage and he dominated it. Not just anyone was going to do that, only Mariano Rivera could. That kind of greatness transcends any one team. You can rest assured he would have been the same pitcher no matter what team he was on.

perezfan · #4 01-23-2019, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

A benefit isn't really a benefit if you can't take advantage of it. Like I said, that argument unfairly discounts what he did on the field. He was on the stage and he dominated it. Not just anyone was going to do that, only Mariano Rivera could. That kind of greatness transcends any one team. You can rest assured he would have been the same pitcher no matter what team he was on.

As a long-suffering Reds fan, I just cannot buy into that. If a lifelong Red, he would have somehow blown more saves (and had far fewer save opportunities). And he probably would've gotten some career-altering injury early in his career.

I believe that being a Yankee, and playing in that market at that time contributed immensely to his unanimous selection.

ALR-bishop · #5 01-23-2019, 01:28 PM

But are saves a "stupid" stat ?

AndrewJerome · #6 01-23-2019, 02:07 PM

HOF votes finally are public information. I think this is the first year (or maybe the second?) that votes are made public. Voters can't hide behind their votes anymore. I believe the number of people voting has also decreased by quite a bit since this change was made. Perhaps this is because old school voters (who refused to vote for anyone on the first ballot etc.) have stopped voting since they don't want their votes made public?

Anyway, all of this is a big reason for elite players getting near 100% and now at 100% for Mariano. Now a non-vote actually his repercussions, including a social media fire storm from angry fans. We can expect elite players to get near 100% from here on out. As it should be in my opinion. What reason would there be for not voting for a slam dunk HOFer?

Throttlesteer · #7 01-23-2019, 02:47 PM

For the record, WAR is a very useful stat but it isn't perfect. Relievers certainly aren't highly valued when considering the bigger picture. It can be argued back and forth about whether saves are overrated or if a reliever is or isn't on par with a starter. The fact is, relievers are a key piece of today's game and the stats don't always tell the whole story. I'm definitely not a Yankees fan, but Mariano was something special. The fact that he's 277th all-time in WAR (Hoffman being buried in the 500's) doesn't mean that I would take 276 of the players above him.

As far as the unanimous part goes, I could care less. I would like to believe that there's some purity to how these awards and honors are determined. But, we all know there are politics, biases, etc...with every one of them. The Heisman Trophy is a great example.

packs · #8 01-23-2019, 02:48 PM

You guys are entitled to your opinions but people keep bringing up Rivera's saves record and personally I think for a player like him the record didn't factor all that much into anybody's opinion of him. He was simply the greatest pitcher of all time and the only pitcher I'd ever want on the mound against any player you want to put up against him in a game I had to win.

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