PSA Vs. SGC

[Buster#1]

This is to mike
Mike I have 75 percent of the 1933 goudey set at psa 8 and sgc 88
I have all the ruth cards no gehrigs
I also collect the 1915 cracker jack set
I have half the set many at 9s and the rest at 8 or 88s
I dont have the shoeless or Alexander card yet
I've had chances....but I'm waiting a little longer.
I have chicken crap sets like 56 topps and 53 bowman but 33 and 15 will be an excellent catch
I know cards
Sgc is really tough
I have a hard time crossing psas to sgc
Only a 40 percent rate
So I keep the psas
Sgc is so tough on pre war
I would prefer all my pre war to be sgc

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[Buster#1]

I recently tried to cross a few sgc 88s to psa 8s at the convention
I have scans of the cards at psa 8 that were crossed from psa 8 to sgc 88s
I carefully selected the cards
None of them crossed not one out of more than 10 submitted

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[Buster#1]

Psa tried to put arrows on the cards showing me the defects .....there weren't any
Some they said had cut Mark's from when they were cut in the year they were made
I laughed...the cards are perfect and quite honestly a guy I showed the cards to who owns an auction company a large one thought they were 8.5s. He only has been in the business 30yrs
Many of u have probably bought cards from his company

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[Republicaninmass]

[QUOTE=Buster#1;1804294]I recently tried to cross a few sgc 88s to psa 8s at the convention
I have scans of the cards at psa 8 that were crossed from psa 8 to sgc 88s
I carefully selected the cards
None of them crossed not one out of more than 10 submitted

/QUOTE]

Ergo PSA sometimes has stricter standards and usually bring a higher price.


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[Buster#1]

I hate to say this but I have a friend that took a big risk and cracked out some psa 8s and sgc 88s
Sent them to psa for grading, 3 sgc 3 psa
No psas came back as 8s and 2 sgcs came back as 8s
The others came back as 7s
Also he sent a high end psa 7 in and it came back an 8.....go figure

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[Buster#1]

It depends on who is grading
If u feel lucky try it...I didn't have the gutt to do it

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[Buster#1]

Nothing really to gain by trying to see if a psa 8 is cracked out and having regraded because u can only lose money
But if u are trying to prove a point and when psa 8s being regraded and come back as 7s and sgc 88s being cracked out come back as psa 8s....something is wrong
Hopefully some day software will be available to determine what is what

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[Buster#1]

I forgot to mention the cards that were regraded by psa that were cracked out which were psa 8s and sgc 88s and no psa 8s came back as 8s and 2 sgcs came back as 8s were from the same set

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[Buster#1]

The bottom line is concerning sgc vs psa.
If u want quality and are a collector sgc is the way to go...less expensive
I've tried to cross pre war cards graded by both companies and they came back the same almost 100 percent of the time.
Now I did have a psa grader bump my sgc cards on one instance and that was cool.
But I've tried the crossover many times and it's not worth it.
U get charged big fees whether bumped or not, and they mostly come back the same.
High end cards are known by the industry, these companies are not going to bump u
Too much risk.

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[Buster#1]

I will say one thing on sgc vs psa concerning 1933 goudeys
Sgc was very hard on grading these cards...harder than psa...I'm going back some years.
If u have sgcs in 33 goudey at 88, they are on average much nicer than psa 8s
They deserve a 92 grade compared to psa 8s in most instances..if anyone really knows the difference between a psa 8 and a sgc 8.5.
But surface area is what sgc loves
Surface is key....color.
Yes corners are big....surface color is really important


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[Buster#1]

When u compare a pre war card and look at surface color compared to corners
What's more appealing
Yes u cant have rounded corners but if u have one rounded corner but the card is glowing because it was stored properly what is your preference
Psa is huge on corners
Sgc is huge on corners and surface color
And both are strict on centering
A personal preference...and scans are extremely misleading because cards are photo shopped

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[frankbmd]

Originally Posted by Buster#1

This is to mike
Mike I have 75 percent of the 1933 goudey set at psa 8 and sgc 88
I have all the ruth cards no gehrigs
I also collect the 1915 cracker jack set
I have half the set many at 9s and the rest at 8 or 88s
I dont have the shoeless or Alexander card yet
I've had chances....but I'm waiting a little longer.
I have chicken crap sets like 56 topps and 53 bowman but 33 and 15 will be an excellent catch
I know cards
Sgc is really tough
I have a hard time crossing psas to sgc
Only a 40 percent rate
So I keep the psas
Sgc is so tough on pre war
I would prefer all my pre war to be sgc

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I have one of those chicken crap sets as well and don't know whether to feel complimented or belittled, since you have one too.

[Buster#1]

I've posted alot on this site....as I have experienced more and more...I can not tell the difference between a psa 8 and a sgc 88 with vintage cards...its so close
They both know what they are doing.
I have psa 8s and sgc 88s in the same collection....33 goudeys
Some psa 8s are nicer than my sgc 88s and vice versa and I'm sure any experienced collector knows that.
I can not give an edge to either in my set
Really can't.
Enjoy your cards..u will get back what u paid for them...if u bought right, whatever company graded. I think sgc cards will close the gap on price in the future yrs.
True collectors see that it's a coin toss between the 2 companies
I don't collect post 1957 so I cant speak intelligently on those cards.
If you want to make an investment in vintage cards, sgc might be the way to go....there's wiggle room
Sgc cards are graded just as tough as psa
I respect both. Sgc is more strict on surface and corners and psa is strict on centering.
Personal choice.


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[Buster#1]

Remember one thing...the 2 CEO's from sgc and psa. are extremely talented, and great guys. They are competing against each other.
Don't submit vintage cards for cross. They know every high grade card out there...
They will not give upgrades....makes them look negative
It ain't gonna happen and it's my experience that psa damages alot of cards in the process...because of all the young people doing the grading...they are overwhelmed and damage a ton of stuff because of the volume.



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[Buster#1]

If u want service and real grades sgc is better
Psa will give u real grades if they don't damage your card from an 8 to a 6

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[Buster#1]

Think of psa and sgc in these terms
U make a pot of soup for 10 people..it can be perfect but if u make a pot of soup for 50 it's just not as good..mistakes are made.
Sgc makes the soup for 10 and psa for 50

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[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by Buster#1

If u want service and real grades sgc is better
Psa will give u real grades if they don't damage your card from an 8 to a 6

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I'm not a pre-war guy but I hear a lot of talk that SGC is better with pre-war. From what I have seen they don't factor centering in as much as PSA.
I guess that isn't why I responded, though. My question is how many cards have you had damaged by PSA? Your comment makes it sound like most are coming back damaged???
I've submitted thousands over the years and I can't say with any certainty that any card I have personally submitted came back damaged. This includes overn 1k this past year while they have been more swamped than ever.
Now, I'm not saying they don't damage cards....I know they do and I'm sure it happens at all TPG's. I would also venture to say that the % with PSA is higher due to the fact that they certify far more cards than any other TPG.
My biggest argument though, is that you can INDEED make just as good a pot of soup for 50 people as you can for 10. Sometimes even better!

[Buster#1]

Good point
Thx for reply

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[Buster#1]

I'm going to tell everyone a true story
I had over 100 sgc 88s pre war cards same set that were all graded by psa as 8s.
Pics are available..my friend hated psa and had them crossed to sgc
I bought the sgcs because they obviously were more reasonable
There were 3 huge collectors out there at one time that would buy psa 8s and tried to cross to sgc...why...I don't know. But didn't have huge success in crossing...they would resell the psa 8s and try to find better ones to get crossed to sgc 88s and had success with high grade 8s
I guess they saw a lot of shenanigans w psa in the early days.
I knew all the cards I purchased, were once psa 8s
So I sent many of them in to get crossed and remember...they were all upper 8s in PSA holders
And had not one crossed back to psa..Not one.

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[Buster#1]

As a matter of fact....they downgraded all of them

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[Buster#1]

And it cost me a fortune

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[ClementeFanOh]

Buster's point- "If u want service and real grades sgc is better" is spot on. SGC knows how to grade cards more accurately and consistently- period. PSA somehow still manages to get the highest values, which has EVERYTHING to do with why many people favor them- not their quality...and there are a bunch of veteran freelance graders out there who can do better than most at PSA or SGC!

[KendallCat]

Great info and thanks for sharing. This is almost a one man threw so I figured someone else better comment as well 😄

KC

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Buster#1

As a matter of fact....they downgraded all of them

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Wow, post a screen shot of the results

I have to agree with those who favor SGC. I have at least found "equal" grading standards. However, I do acknowledge the higher values for PSA.

I typically remove the cards from the slab and place them with my sets. As a result, I appreciate the lower prices with firm grading standards in SGC.

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by Buster#1

I'm going to tell everyone a true story
I had over 100 sgc 88s pre war cards same set that were all graded by psa as 8s.
Pics are available..my friend hated psa and had them crossed to sgc
I bought the sgcs because they obviously were more reasonable
There were 3 huge collectors out there at one time that would buy psa 8s and tried to cross to sgc...why...I don't know. But didn't have huge success in crossing...they would resell the psa 8s and try to find better ones to get crossed to sgc 88s and had success with high grade 8s
I guess they saw a lot of shenanigans w psa in the early days.
I knew all the cards I purchased, were once psa 8s
So I sent many of them in to get crossed and remember...they were all upper 8s in PSA holders
And had not one crossed back to psa..Not one.

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With all due respect, as an experienced collector, you had to have known that trying to cross grade from one TPG to another the likelihood of all cards receiving the same grade was slim.

Regardless of the grade the cards previously received.

And trying to cross Pre-War 8's is something most of us wouldn't toy with. At best, you get the same grade. It's unlikely you bump to a 9, more likely you could drop in grades.

If you have Pre-War 8's, or had, you're flying in rare air. If you've got them, post them.

We would love to see them and certainly have great appreciation for them!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

Buster's point- "If u want service and real grades sgc is better" is spot on. SGC knows how to grade cards more accurately and consistently- period. PSA somehow still manages to get the highest values, which has EVERYTHING to do with why many people favor them- not their quality...and there are a bunch of veteran freelance graders out there who can do better than most at PSA or SGC!

You have it backwards. PSA gets the highest values BECAUSE, rightly or wrongly, people favor them. The logic of your statement is like people go to that restaurant because it's crowded.

As for James' misfortune, that's the politics of crossover, which can be brutal. There may also be an element of ultra tight standards compared to when PSA originally graded the 8s.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Buster#1

I'm going to tell everyone a true story
I had over 100 sgc 88s pre war cards same set that were all graded by psa as 8s.
Pics are available..my friend hated psa and had them crossed to sgc
I bought the sgcs because they obviously were more reasonable
There were 3 huge collectors out there at one time that would buy psa 8s and tried to cross to sgc...why...I don't know. But didn't have huge success in crossing...they would resell the psa 8s and try to find better ones to get crossed to sgc 88s and had success with high grade 8s
I guess they saw a lot of shenanigans w psa in the early days.
I knew all the cards I purchased, were once psa 8s
So I sent many of them in to get crossed and remember...they were all upper 8s in PSA holders
And had not one crossed back to psa..Not one.

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It is pretty common knowledge that early on grading companies were over grading cards and now are doing a better job. Did you try to cross any of the PSA cards back to SGC 88? I don't see how they cost you money unless SGC won't regrade them at 88. In that case, you just over paid for over graded cards. Why didn't you put a minimum grade of 8 when you tried to cross back to PSA? I think that is what most would do unless you were doing a registry and just had to have them in PSA holders. I think we would all like to see scans to judge the condition for ourselves.

[ruth_rookie]

Something doesn’t add up with this Buster guy. He says he works nights, which is why he always posts when the rest of us are asleep. Yet he’s working on a high grade Cracker Jack set (PSA/SGC 8-9 from what little I can decipher). He already has “75% of the 1933 Goudey set in PSA 8 or SGC 88” including the Ruth’s. It’s none of my business, but if I had that kinda dough, I wouldn’t be working nights. In fact, I wouldn’t be working at all.

[ClementeFanOh]

I don't think so, Peter- my point was spot on. I wish I had a dollar for every "collector" who remarked they just wanted PSA cards. They don't ask about a specific card's quality, descriptions, etc- they are merely seeking the bottom line. I guess I'll grudgingly say "good for PSA", as it must be nice to be richly rewarded for incredibly spotty work; however, most folks focus on PSA strictly out of bottom line concerns. So, my point remains.

[ruth_rookie]

+1. In addition, newbies into the hobby/business are jumping on the PSA Bandwagon too by exclusively purchasing PSA, which only exacerbates the issue. I personally know of two high-income guys entering our beloved pastime and will only buy PSA. I’ve tried selling them on SGC to no avail.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ClementeFanOh

I don't think so, Peter- my point was spot on. I wish I had a dollar for every "collector" who remarked they just wanted PSA cards. They don't ask about a specific card's quality, descriptions, etc- they are merely seeking the bottom line. I guess I'll grudgingly say "good for PSA", as it must be nice to be richly rewarded for incredibly spotty work; however, most folks focus on PSA strictly out of bottom line concerns. So, my point remains.

And did PSA magically get to be more expensive in a vacuum, or did it get there because people favored them?

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by ruth_rookie

Something doesn’t add up with this Buster guy. (...)

He also re-replies to himself often, which functions to re-activate the thread on the daily digest of newly updated threads, which is artificial, since if there were still useful points to add on the topic, others would be commenting and it could carry on of its own accord.

Also, b/w this thread and a few others I think I recall, this seems the only topic of fixation.

It seems designed just to bait people into an argument over a topic that is already well-worn...

[Johnny630]

When people say it’s not about the money don’t believe them it’s always about the money lol.

I dont think anyone disputes the higher "market value" of PSA. However, the "exact same quality" of card can be had from SGC for less money which works great for those of us who use binders for raw cards.

We are able to get the same grade cards without paying top market prices.

[ClementeFanOh]

Peter- there was no magic involved, which you already knew. PSA was "first", which some people equate with being best. (You may recall a recent time in the American automotive industry when consumers bought cars simply because they were American, despite overwhelming evidence the product had deteriorated. Over time, even lots of those hard liners gave up and bought better made vehicles)…
Back to the original question, which was which grader does the reader "respect", my answer and point remains the same. I "respect" the company which actually gets the grade RIGHT a high percentage of the time and which employs good customer service as well. There will be folks who say they respect PSA more; however, that respect is almost exclusively pecuniary in nature, because the grading consistency and accuracy just ain't there. Again, 3 cheers to PSA for making truckloads of cash despite delivering mediocre product; however, that result does not equate to "respect" or "proficiency".

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me there's still an element of circularity to say people prefer PSA because it sells for more. Sales prices are a function of supply and demand, so there has to be a reason for the demand and I don't believe at this point it's just first-mover advantage, that was used up a long long time ago. I understand your perspective though.

[steve B]

[Buster#1]

I think everyone has extremely valid points
Card collecting is fun but a stressful burden if you are doing it as a business and for the love of the hobby. Thats what I do.
I love to collect and fell in love w the 33 goudey set and 1915 cracker jack set when I took a bus to the convention center in my hometown when I was 12 yrs old and saw those gems.
1972...a ruth card was 50 bucks and I had 50 bucks in my pocket.
I cut grass and shoveled snow and saved money.
I bought a bunch of piedmont tobacco cards for one dollar each ....I was just a kid.
I remember seeing a 53 mantle in a plastic sleeve which was beautiful for 8 dollars.
If you all want to see the 109 cards that were rejected by psa as crossovers that were all psa 8s go to this website
Rgold7000 image events 1933s
I bought 109 of those cards at sgc 88 and 92
Not one crossed.
They were all psa 8s at one time
I see that the gentleman I bought the cards from has commented on my posts.
Perhaps psa is a little more strict nowadays
But u have to admit
That means collection was sweet..every card I purchased from him was an 88 or 92
And I've never talked to anyone in the hobby that is smarter than rgold7000
Everyone of his cards were pristine
He is a perfectionist
Every corner may not have been perfect but surface area and eye appeal was as good as any psa 8 in the hobby except for the 33 goudeys that just sold on heritage
That collection is the finest group of 33s I've ever seen
Everyone of those cards were high high psa 8s the rest were 9s and deserving.
So I don't mean to piss anyone off
I own restaurants so this is why I post late at night
Never leave my work until 230am



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[Buster#1]

What I can say about rgold7000 is that he is probably the smartest most knowledgeable man I've ever met in the hobby
And I have had the displeasure of meeting
Auction company owners and many others

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[Buster#1]

I'm not into poisoning the hobby and I won't say who are the bad guys
But when there is money to be made, there are bad guys.
I got screwed and learned my lesson the hard way....shame on him
But it's not going to be shame on me in the future.
Vintage sgc cards are as good as psa
And they are easily worth the same if not more
Who knows if the prices will ever correct.
Quite frankly I don't care at this point

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[Fuddjcal]

me neither... i just have the bug to buy cards and try and enjoy them knowing they are "probably" real? Unlike the 99% nice raw cards that are altered. At least you have a fighting chance in a PSA or SGC case, I think?

I'd just like to know how they crack their slabs and how they do it with out destroying the card?

[jchcollins]

I just read the last 3 pages of this thread since it was showing in my unread, and now I have a tremedous headache.

[Suitntieguy]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I just read the last 3 pages of this thread since it was showing in my unread, and now I have a tremedous headache.

I can appreciate this. And this is not directed at you but,...
It seems some of the laws economics are not working so well in our hobby. I postulate that collectors, by and large have created an environment where TPGs are a necessity. Too many cards have been altered and reprinted (well). Most seasoned collectors know to buy the card and not the holder but relying and third party authentication is crucial to many, especially high dollar vintage.

Yet, the most successful company is not the best. Not even close, save prices realized. It is well agreed that PSA is less consistent than SGC. Their holders are second to SGC. Their cusomter service is worse. Yet, they continue to receive a lion’s share of the submissions and realize higher prices at auction. For a number of reasons, despite the above, the buying public prefers PSA slabbed cards. They have spoken loud and clear.

I suppose there is value in the registry, but that is it. The collector universe, by and large, thinks critically and academicly about this passion and should be acting/buying according to finished product vs name recognition and marketing. But not so much. I am guilty of this too. I am sitting on a large submission. I will most likely bring it to the national this summer. For vintage I am on the fence, SGC vs PSA. SGC wins all categories. All but one. Grade for grade, they will be worth more if they are in a PSA holder. The circle will not break until there is equilibrium between prices realized.

I am asking, what will it take for that to happen? And, has that already started? It seems like there are more and more pro SGC comments on these debates lately. Can that move the needle?

[brian1961]

As someone may have already stated, "It's always all about the money."

The SGC holders and how our cards look in them are amazing, though their current one, with the loud, boldface number and blacker appearance, is not as elegant as their original forest green cert. Moreover, I enjoyed their old, unique grading scale, and became somewhat used to it. My only complaint with them, however, was the fact they very, very, rarely awarded a card with "98 Gem Mint". PSA seemed to award many more cards with GEM MINT 10. Even though this suggests SGC were "tougher" graders than PSA, I think over the years the lack of SGC "98 Gem Mint" irritated collectors. They could understand the lack of cards receiving the exceedingly rare "100 Pristine" grade. However, it was almost as rare to get the "98 Gem Mint", and after awhile, you just want to say, "nuts to SGC and their nice holders", I'll go with PSA---at least they'll give a great card "PSA 10", and their holders have been fine all along the way, never changing that much. Furthermore, ya get more money for your PSA-graded cards, so..... it becomes an easy decision.

Now, for a time, 10-12 years ago, I had to go with SGC, because they would grade some of my confirmable unique, ultra rare, over-sized items that PSA wouldn't grade. I must stress the few over-sized items I sent to SGC look magnificent in their over-sized holder, because they could custom-cut their black insert to fit the large card/flat box/ larger premium PERFECTLY!

Honestly, I've never been attracted to any master set player registry, because by its nature, you MUST collect all the items to be competitive. I don't have any intention nor interest along those lines, and it's not just because of the sheer cost. I ONLY want items that really capture my fancy, whereby I respect how they were issued and the promotion from whence they came. Moreover, I only wanted to "collect" pieces I found exceedingly beautiful, with compelling eye appeal. There's often a lot of mundane or flat-out ugly items that comprise a player set registry. I don't care if it's ultra rare; if it's ugly, I don't care---to own it. Be that as it may, if my fellow collectors choose to pursue any of PSA's set or player registries, that is great and I sincerely wish them happy collecting and fulfillment. I also think of my friend Chris De Bono, who for years aggressively hunted down as many different items of Mickey Mantle as he could. Some are professionally graded; some are not---that was not particularly important to him. What was important was getting as many different genuine Mantles issued during his career as possible. Chris has over 400, and all I can bellow is a sincere, "WOW!!!" One of his most fascinating adventures was the procurement of a 1960 Home Run Derby set (the year is correct--read chapter 8 of the E-book on a CD, NEVER CHEAPER BY THE DOZEN) for the solitary reason of getting the Mickey Mantle. His strategy was to have all the cards graded by PSA, then sell the cards one by one, and keep his prized Mickey Mantle. The strategy worked brilliantly, and he patiently got all his money back, including grading fees, and essentially, got a Home Run Derby Mickey for free!!!!!! That is saying something, but I don't believe he could have achieved the same glowing results had he gone with grading his set by SGC.

The matter of PSA versus SGC has gone on and on, ad nauseam. It is important though that our hobby has three good grading companies, with Beckett being the third. At least we have a choice. Each company has its pluses, just as each company has its respective chagrin.

In the end, the principles of supply and demand, and what generates the most money will win out, far and away. I guess I've had my say, except to stress, collect and be happy, 'cause life is shorter than you think. ---Brian Powell

[Buster#1]

Excellently said

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[Buster#1]

I recently sold a group of sgc 88s that I had duplicates of...33 goudey cards.
They sold for 42 percent higher than what I paid.
I bought them less than 12 months ago
So sgc is going forward


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[Buster#1]

Well said
Very well said
Thx

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[Buster#1]

I initially wrote many comments about sgc and how much luck I had w them
Recently I purchased many t206,1915 and 33s in sgc 88 or 8 now at lower than vcp prices...I got crushed when I auctioned some of them,
And recently I have bought dozens of t206 1915 and 33s in PSA 8 at lower than vcp prices and made 200 percent at auction for some and none less than 50 percent
For example
I bought a sgc 92 54 red heart musial for way too much...it sold for almost a thousand at auction
A psa 7 in same auction fetched almost the same amount.
I can say one thing for sure.
I won't be buying sgc cards anymore.
psa cards in my opinion are a helluva alot nicer than sgc in high grades.
I never thought cards in less than a 7 or 84 so I can't comment on lower graded cards
I'm extremely disappointed in the money sgc 88s are bringing
3x less than psa


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[onlyvintage62]

Originally Posted by Buster#1

Well said
Very well said
Thx

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IMO and I consider myself asavy typically neurotic collector.

SGC is a tougher grader EXCEPT for centering which I think hurts their brand.

I have crossed over cards back and forth just to experiment and SGC is tougher. Many sgc 88's came bach 8.5 and 9's.