Borrowing against graded cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Peter, gotcha. I dig. I still think the lending business, even with the chance to make money off sales of defaults, is too thin to be a succes as a stand-alone business.

Mike, I make no comment either way on the vault. Seems like a good enough place to store and display cards as any; although I like having mine close and taking them out and looking at them. Perhaps the lending is just a concomitant to the vault, and is all part of an integrated platform.

End of the day, Brent has done one heck of a job with pwcc. It’s hard to bet against that success (although I am dubious about the lending biz, as a stand-alone enterprise).

Why is "the Vault" any more secure than a bank? Is it in some bunker ten feet deep under Oregon with ten levels of security clearance?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why is "the Vault" any more secure than a bank? Is it in some bunker ten feet deep under Oregon with ten levels of security clearance?

OMG it won't be safe in Oregon, what about the Cascadia earthquake that will cause a tsunami that will wipe out most of Oregon?

LOL, Sorry had to post that. We are going to move to the Oregon coast so I joined a forum on moving there. Had several nuts saying to stay away because of the impending earthquake that could happen tomorrow or in 500 years.

[Rhotchkiss]

I didn’t say the vault is more (or less) secure than a bank. I said I suppose it’s as good a place as any to keep it, but that I like my cards close to me where I can touch and see.

[AddieJoss]

I trhink part of the reason folks will use the “vault” is due to the fact they can ship their winnings from pwcc or other auction houses there not pay the sales tax. On larger purchases that will save a lot. Those items will also be available for sale to those that want to. Also, safer than some folks homes. The lending does not need to be to just buy other cards but can be for college costs, mortgage, etc, and just not wanting to liquidate just yet. The shear volume will not be mandatory as it is ancillary business for pwcc. I think it will make sense for folks in certain situations and bother option is not bad.
Cory Weiser

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I trhink part of the reason folks will use the “vault” is due to the fact they can ship their winnings from pwcc or other auction houses there not pay the sales tax. On larger purchases that will save a lot. Those items will also be available for sale to those that want to. Also, safer than some folks homes. The lending does not need to be to just buy other cards but can be for college costs, mortgage, etc, and just not wanting to liquidate just yet. The shear volume will not be mandatory as it is ancillary business for pwcc. I think it will make sense for folks in certain situations and bother option is not bad.
Cory Weiser

Question - Who will pay the sales tax? Someone will have to. I don't think PWCC is going to pick that up for you....

[chalupacollects]

How will PWCC be able to stop the fraud???

Lets say person A sends the card to PWCC, gets a loan, keeps a scan and then puts scan on ebay.. Sells item off ebay, collect funds from Paypal or whoever, doesn't ship...and skips...

So they may lose the card if they don't pay (if not able to pay and call it back) but gets funds on loan and ebay sale.. Close shop and start again?

If I can drum that up off the cuff, what will the real scammers think of?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

How will PWCC be able to stop the fraud???

Lets say person A sends the card to PWCC, gets a loan, keeps a scan and then puts scan on ebay.. Sells item off ebay, collect funds from Paypal or whoever, doesn't ship...and skips...

So they may lose the card if they don't pay (if not able to pay and call it back) but gets funds on loan and ebay sale.. Close shop and start again?

If I can drum that up off the cuff, what will the real scammers think of?

Why is that any of PWCC's problem? They have no potential liability to the buyer.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why is that any of PWCC's problem? They have no potential liability to the buyer.

Well not sure it is their problem though they may be in possession of the card at the time of the fraud and be implicated.... In any case if a scammer times it right they can make out with loan, card and victim's money... So PWCC may get dragged into it somehow...

[PiratesWS1979]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Question - Who will pay the sales tax? Someone will have to. I don't think PWCC is going to pick that up for you....

Probably nobody. They "ship" to themselves so did the transaction on eBay happen? Cards can be purchased on credit and you don't have to pay through eBay.

I've bought a Cobb six months ago and put 25% via PayPal FF. A month later I paid the remaining 75%, again PayPal FF. No credit card fees, no tax and as far as I know PWCC may have a contract with eBay far an allowance for non-paying buyers.

[chalupacollects]

[QUOTE=PiratesWS1979;1850097]Probably nobody. They "ship" to themselves so did the transaction on eBay happen? Cards can be purchased on credit and you don't have to pay through eBay.

Wouldn't ebay have a record of the transaction then? If ebay is tracking the auction then someone will have to pay the taxes..not sure how that works these days...

[PiratesWS1979]

[QUOTE=chalupacollects;1850138]

Originally Posted by PiratesWS1979

Probably nobody. They "ship" to themselves so did the transaction on eBay happen? Cards can be purchased on credit and you don't have to pay through eBay.

Wouldn't ebay have a record of the transaction then? If ebay is tracking the auction then someone will have to pay the taxes..not sure how that works these days...

That wouldn't matter at all, it happens all the time. I've bought a few time and have even sold a few times on then off eBay. Just win the auction, pay with PayPal FF and cancel the eBay transaction, easy. I'm sure most members have contacted eBay sellers giving their net54 id to avoid fees

[glynparson]

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Question - Who will pay the sales tax? Someone will have to. I don't think PWCC is going to pick that up for you....

Oregon does not have a state sales tax therefore when they receive a shipment there should be no state sales tax.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I trhink part of the reason folks will use the “vault” is due to the fact they can ship their winnings from pwcc or other auction houses there not pay the sales tax. On larger purchases that will save a lot. Those items will also be available for sale to those that want to. Also, safer than some folks homes. The lending does not need to be to just buy other cards but can be for college costs, mortgage, etc, and just not wanting to liquidate just yet. The shear volume will not be mandatory as it is ancillary business for pwcc. I think it will make sense for folks in certain situations and bother option is not bad.
Cory Weiser

Not so sure that is a way to get around the sales taxes. The buyer's address is already listed in Ebay records, so I believe that is the address they would use for determining sales tax liability, not where PWCC has their "Vault". Simply telling PWCC to hold onto the cards in their "Vault" in Oregon may sound like a way to escape sales tax, but i doubt that would work. You would have the ability to ask for your cards to be sent to you at any time, so sticking them in PWCC's "Vault" for a while to escape sales tax from where the buyer really lives would eventually get picked up by those states getting cheated out of sales tax as well. And PWCC could get their neck in the wringer with those other states by helping to hide the true nature of the transaction and assist these buyers in not paying the proper sales tax.

The other states would argue that there is no real purpose for keeping the cards in Oregon, other than to get around the sales tax. And if you did argue that you keep them there to facilitate PWCC being able to resell them quickly and easily for you, then the states could argue that you are actually acting like a dealer in that case and should probably be registered and filing sales tax returns yourself. And that also likely means you should be giving sales tax exemption certificates out to sellers when you buy items to begin with so you wouldn't be paying sales tax on anything anyway, but now you're in a business that should be filing and reporting what you're doing, which could lead to more trouble and work than it is worth.

The courts would have a field day with this. Saying you don't owe the sales tax because you told someone to hold the items for you in a non sales tax state would hold water like a sieve. This would likely be viewed as a "step transaction" where the buyer gets the item, has it shipped to them and then turns around and sends it to PWCC in a non-sales tax state. The fact that you tell PWCC to hold on to the item for you doesn't mean the buyer still didn't go through technically receiving the item and then deciding to have PWCC holding it. Unless it was for a "business purpose", which I already noted earlier would mean you probably should be registered and filing sales sales taxes as a dealer, the other states would argue the idea of holding your cards in Oregon is a deceptive practice meant only to beat the states out of the sales tax they are due.. What you are proposing is an out and out scam to defraud states of sales taxes due them, and would likely get anyone involved in trouble if caught. And I'm talking possible criminal prosecution for the parties involved as that borders on tax evasion.

Think about it. If what you suggested would work to escape sales tax, why wouldn't someone set up a company in a non-sales tax state and instead of acting like a consignor and selling items for people, like PWCC does, this company instead buys items on behalf of their clients so they don't have to pay sales tax. The company charges a fee, say 1%-2% of the value of items they buy, and argue it is for their services in purchasing items for their clients and not a portion of the sales tax they saved them. The item goes to them at their address in a non-sales tax state, and they simply turn over the items to their clients once they receive them, sans any sales tax. Because of the shipping/postage costs involved it wouldn't make sense to do on small, nominal valued items, but for a big dollar item it could make a lost of sense.

The problem with this idea is that the company doing the purchasing would likely be determined to be acting as an agent for the real buyers, and doing so purposely to get around paying the sales tax. Or, the states would argue that the company doing the purchasing was in effect a dealer themselves ans that when they got reimbursed for their purchases on behalf of their clients that were effectively selling those to the clients and therefore they should be collecting and remitting sales tax to all these other states themselves.

Oh, someone doing this would likely get away with it for a while, but once a state got wise, I wouldn't want to be the parties involved in defrauding the states of their sales taxes.

[BobC]

As for the idea of getting a loan on ones cards, those are not cheap rates. If it truly is only for some temporary period of time, it isn't much different than going to a pawn shop, is it? However, having said that, they may actually be some tax advantages for such a loan.

If the cards are kept by you as a collector for investment purposes, the interest being paid could be deemed as "investment interest expense", which is allowable as an itemized deduction on Schedule A of your federal tax return, but only to the extent you have net investment income that same year. (Any excess, non-deductible investment interest expense in a given year can then be carried forward and deducted against net investment income in future years.) However, you would have to use the proceeds of any borrowing to purchase additional cards for investment purposes, as in the example of one poster who suggested buying a $1,000 card and then borrowing half that amount to go out and then buy a $500 card. You would also want to be sure to properly report the sales activity on your federal tax return for any such "collectibles" you had bought and sold then, and on which you claimed an investment interest deduction to purchase them with.

And if you're actually a dealer and in the business of selling cards, the interest expense in that case could be treated as a straight-up operating business deduction. Same thing as buying inventory on credit. You can write the interest expense off against you income from sales.

[Leon]

Sounds no different than writing off property taxes as an expense on a rental property. Thank God for CPA's .

Originally Posted by BobC

As for the idea of getting a loan on ones cards, those are not cheap rates. If it truly is only for some temporary period of time, it isn't much different than going to a pawn shop, is it? However, having said that, they may actually be some tax advantages for such a loan.

If the cards are kept by you as a collector for investment purposes, the interest being paid could be deemed as "investment interest expense", which is allowable as an itemized deduction on Schedule A of your federal tax return, but only to the extent you have net investment income that same year. (Any excess, non-deductible investment interest expense in a given year can then be carried forward and deducted against net investment income in future years.) However, you would have to use the proceeds of any borrowing to purchase additional cards for investment purposes, as in the example of one poster who suggested buying a $1,000 card and then borrowing half that amount to go out and then buy a $500 card. You would also want to be sure to properly report the sales activity on your federal tax return for any such "collectibles" you had bought and sold then, and on which you claimed an investment interest deduction to purchase them with.

And if you're actually a dealer and in the business of selling cards, the interest expense in that case could be treated as a straight-up operating business deduction. Same thing as buying inventory on credit. You can write the interest expense off against you income from sales.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I was addressing Mike P who doesn't seem to think a bank is safe enough.

"I constantly worry about water breaks at the bank, theft, or fire."

[vthobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Why is "the Vault" any more secure than a bank? Is it in some bunker ten feet deep under Oregon with ten levels of security clearance?

Peter,

I did not say that the Vault is more secure than a bank. It's not to be frank but I'm sure according to those I've talked to at PWCC that it is state of the art AND every item is INSURED.

My collectibles are NOT insured at the moment so I see a VERY valuable option here. "The Vault" is closer to Russia than my bank is so an ICBM could easily take out my Wee Willie Keelers that will be stored there in the future and that frankly upsets me. Now if the Russian's take Willie's solid advice to "Hit 'em where they aint" then my collectibles will be safe in The Vault, but I digress.

Peace, Mike

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vtgmsc

Peter,

I did not say that the Vault is more secure than a bank. It's not to be frank but I'm sure according to those I've talked to at PWCC that it is state of the art AND every item is INSURED.

My collectibles are NOT insured at the moment so I see a VERY valuable option here. "The Vault" is closer to Russia than my bank is so an ICBM could easily take out my Wee Willie Keelers that will be stored there in the future and that frankly upsets me. Now if the Russian's take Willie's solid advice to "Hit 'em where they aint" then my collectibles will be safe in The Vault, but I digress.

Peace, Mike

Read the fine print is my advice.

[eliotdeutsch]

As was mentioned, things like this go on all the time in financial markets. So all details of pricing the collateral, custodial services, defaults etc can be solved here like it is there.

Where I see this breaking down is the “negative carry” is just too great.

If you buy a security that yields 5% and you use it as collateral to finance the purchase, of this financing rate is sufficiently low, you’re levered returns are higher. That’s the main reason why all institutional investors use leverage.

In the baseball card market, where cards don’t pay interest or a dividend or any cash flow of any kind, you’re buying for the sole purpose of capital appreciation. If you then layer on leverage at a very high rate, you’d better hope your cards appreciate dramatically and fast or you’d just be better off using cash.

At best, I see this as a method of achieving short term funding, but like others mentioned, of you have 50k in cads,, you can get much cheaper funding in other ways. At worst, it’s a way for auction houses to lure borrowers into cards they ordinarily couldn’t afford, knowing full well they’ll probably default on the loans, resulting in nice profit for auction house.

Lenders would have to do extreme due diligence before making these loans in order not to be predatory. All this resulting in no one using the program.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That's the good thing about gold. At 46K (today) for a kilo bar, it's pretty efficient to store.