Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[ballparks]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Are other collectible hobbies plagued by such fraudulent behavior as this one is?
I am sure there is fraud in other hobbies but is it this widespread?
My other hobbies do not involve collecting anything, fortunately, except my airline boarding passes.

https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/sour_grapes_2016

Amazing documentary on how the wine hobby was duped. Watch it!

[BruceinGa]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

But do stamps and coins have as much fraud as this hobby?

I remember as a kid in the early 60's hearing about tampered 1944 D Lincoln cent being altered to appear as a 1914 D. There were others but my memory, well, you know.

[itslarry]

Killing stamp market from what people are forums seem to be. Saying. Or killed it I should say.
Anywhere there is money and the chance for people to cheat, sadly.

[ALBB]

Records too

I got burned with some early " rare " Beatle records, also another famous fake is the John Lennon Roots LP

[irv]

Any new updates on this? Did PSA, SGC or JSA (James Spence authentication) have anything to say about this yet or has all been hush hush?

Another thread was started discussing the impact this will have on the Auto side of collecting. Have people noticed this and seen a big drop in prices or people collecting them?

Was/were the perp(s) ever caught and charged or is this investigation still ongoing?

[MichelaiTorres83]

The EBay username was shown. Everyone was satisfied they were part of the in crowd now, so the thread died, pending a new major update that will excite the masses again.

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

The EBay username was shown. Everyone was satisfied they were part of the in crowd now, so the thread died, pending a new major update that will excite the masses again.

I heard that they know who this is but there's a related issue that everyone is dancing around and that is the grading companies passing this stuff -and then there are the auctions. I think both of these institutions bear some responsibility and collectors need answers.

Collectors bear some responsibility too. Many are too impatient, don't ask questions, properly research and take the word of authenticators as gospel without knowing their backgrounds.

Tell me, does everything go back to the way it was once this guy is caught? Or, do we as collectors and dealers have a responsibility to make sure these kind of things are not forgotten so they don't happen again?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by topcat61

I heard that they know who this is but there's a related issue that everyone is dancing around and that is the grading companies passing this stuff -and then there are the auctions. I think both of these institutions bear some responsibility and collectors need answers.

Collectors bear some responsibility too. Many are too impatient, don't ask questions, properly research and take the word of authenticators as gospel without knowing their backgrounds.

Tell me, does everything go back to the way it was once this guy is caught? Or, do we as collectors and dealers have a responsibility to make sure these kind of things are not forgotten so they don't happen again?

LOL, what changed?

NOBODY CARES. Scammers get outed all the time and people still line up to buy from them. If you read the threads outing the scammers there are other scammers posting in those threads on how that is now or should be accepted in the hobby.

[topcat61]

There isn't anything funny about this. It isn't that nobody cares -the collectors who got taken care. A friend of mine got taken for 18 grand on one card alone. How about the integrity of the Hobby we all enjoy?

If anyone hasn't seen it yet, the documentary on Netflix called "Sour Grapes" really points out that many collectors turn a blind eye or make excuses for things they know is wrong. At what point does the Hobby come crashing down again? You know it will at some point and it's going to be harder and harder to convince new collectors to part with their money if everything they see is built on fraud.

[packs]

Originally Posted by topcat61

There isn't anything funny about this. It isn't that nobody cares -the collectors who got taken care. A friend of mine got taken for 18 grand on one card alone. How about the integrity of the Hobby we all enjoy?

If anyone hasn't seen it yet, the documentary on Netflix called "Sour Grapes" really points out that many collectors turn a blind eye or make excuses for things they know is wrong. At what point does the Hobby come crashing down again? You know it will at some point and it's going to be harder and harder to convince new collectors to part with their money if everything they see is built on fraud.

Everything isn't built on fraud though. This is an issue with autograph authentication. Nobody has been able to create a T206 that passed as authentic made in 2019.

[pgconboy]

Fantastic legwork comparing before and after auto pictures. If anyone would take the time to write up a few sites and strategies for sleuthing I would be glad to invest a few hours here and there looking for matches.

[Fred]

Is this a dead thread? No outcome? No arrests?

[ramram]

1F2F1962-A378-4DCF-ABB7-E3B0CAA06500.jpg

[uniship]

Sorry if I missed it, but what was the name of the forger? Or are the authorities still instructing not to share this with the collecting community?

[felada]

Any updates?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by felada

Any updates?

After a 20+ minute phone call yesterday the OP was banned, unfortunately, due to registration violations. On the phone he could not provide a way to positively ID himself. He told me he knew no one in the hobby, didn't bid on ebay or with any auction house. It was quite an uncomfortable call in that I repeatedly told him all I need to do is be comfortable with who he says he is. He never could or would provide that info. Very strange. Some folks think it could be Peter Nash.....and that could open up a whole nuther bag of worms. In reality he could be who he says he is but too many things didn't add up. Late last night another piece of info was revealed that makes me believe Manny could be Manny....but everything just doesn't add up. We ended the call politely with me telling him I wasn't satisfied with who he says he is. Good bye...
ps...my understanding, from a reliable source, is the investigation is ongoing as of yesterday....

[Jersey City Giants]

Thanks for the update Leon

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Leon

After a 20+ minute phone call yesterday the OP was banned, unfortunately, due to registration violations. On the phone he could not provide a way to positively ID himself. He told me he knew no one in the hobby, didn't bid on ebay or with any auction house. It was quite an uncomfortable call in that I repeatedly told him all I need to do is be comfortable with who he says he is. He never could or would provide that info. Very strange. Some folks think it could be Peter Nash.....and that could open up a whole nuther bag of worms. In reality he could be who he says he is but too many things didn't add up. Late last night another piece of info was revealed that makes me believe Manny could be Manny....but everything just doesn't add up. We ended the call politely with me telling him I wasn't satisfied with who he says he is. Good bye...
ps...my understanding, from a reliable source, is the investigation is ongoing as of yesterday....

Completely understand your actions, but I wonder if he was nervous confirming identity for fear of being outed himself. I imagine there are certain people who might be negatively interested in him.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Completely understand your actions, but I wonder if he was nervous confirming identity for fear of being outed himself. I imagine there are certain people who might be negatively interested in him.

Believe me, I told him several times his identity would stay with only me and possibly the authorities. I don't think he liked that answer. It really could be Manny but I can't believe some of what he told me. Unlike other forums this one has 0 tolerance for complete anonymity. And I think it is why we have some higher profile members (auction houses, lawyers, etc...) because they know they will get to know who is saying what about them. Some say, well if it is complete fact, why should they have to say who they are? Well, because it is my belief that each person or company has a right to know who is saying stuff about them.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Leon

After a 20+ minute phone call yesterday the OP was banned, unfortunately, due to registration violations. On the phone he could not provide a way to positively ID himself. He told me he knew no one in the hobby, didn't bid on ebay or with any auction house. It was quite an uncomfortable call in that I repeatedly told him all I need to do is be comfortable with who he says he is. He never could or would provide that info. Very strange. Some folks think it could be Peter Nash.....and that could open up a whole nuther bag of worms. In reality he could be who he says he is but too many things didn't add up. Late last night another piece of info was revealed that makes me believe Manny could be Manny....but everything just doesn't add up. We ended the call politely with me telling him I wasn't satisfied with who he says he is. Good bye...
ps...my understanding, from a reliable source, is the investigation is ongoing as of yesterday....

WOW, that is crazy that a 7 year member that has seriously helped the forum got banned.

I do understand and really like the name rule on here. Like Manny if that is his real name I know absolutely nobody in the hobby. I also do not bid with any auction houses. About the only thing I an guarantee is I am not Peter Nash.

[Leon]

But, I hope, if you and I were on the phone for 20+ minutes you would be able to provide information to verify your identity. Anyone on this forum could have the same issue, I guess. I can verify my identity, no issue.

Originally Posted by bnorth

WOW, that is crazy that a 7 year member that has seriously helped the forum got banned.

I do understand and really like the name rule on here. Like Manny if that is his real name I know absolutely nobody in the hobby. I also do not bid with any auction houses. About the only thing I an guarantee is I am not Peter Nash.

[chalupacollects]

Just a thought if he is afraid of repercussions maybe he can reveal proof of identity to a disinterested 3rd party?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by bnorth

WOW, that is crazy that a 7 year member that has seriously helped the forum got banned.

I do understand and really like the name rule on here. Like Manny if that is his real name I know absolutely nobody in the hobby. I also do not bid with any auction houses. About the only thing I an guarantee is I am not Peter Nash.

Ah, but you know me, and I can vouch for your identity!

[steve B]

Short of scanning my ID, I', not sure I could prove I'm me either.

I've been around since the late 70's in the hobby with a few stretches of relative inactivity. I've always been sort of an "under the radar" sort of guy. So while I know people (More like know of people) in the hobby, I'm really certain they wouldn't remember me. The only ones that would I'm pretty sure aren't on here, and I'm not sure if or how they're involved in the hobby anymore.


And aside from one of the more minor auctions which isn't operating anymore and Ebay, I have yet to bid in a hobby auction.

[Jobu]

I assume committee for the O'Doul award will not look favorably on these happenings.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=award

[HOFautosChris]

So a Rub e Marquard signed T206 ended on ebay last night for $613.00 through Probstein. Was this one of the ones outed in this thread

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by HOFautosChris

So a Rub e Marquard signed T206 ended on ebay last night for $613.00 through Probstein. Was this one of the ones outed in this thread

In don’t know the answer, but do you really want to know?

Probstein is a red flag to me.

But that is just me, I guess.

Name above post.

[Rich Klein]

Just one historical note on why Leon asks for names and I agree with him.

In the previous world pre-Net 54 we had the Full Count Vintage Board. The concept was great but way too soon the board truly became a shouting match full of obscenities and terrible things said about way too many good (and sometimes bad) people.

The reason names are here is so someone can face their accuser. That is a basic American right.

it was brought up about Deep Throat in another board. Yes he was anonymous but Woodward and Bernstein put THEIR names on the Watergate articles so there was still persons out there one could ID.

Regards
Rich

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Leon

After a 20+ minute phone call yesterday the OP was banned, unfortunately, due to registration violations. On the phone he could not provide a way to positively ID himself. He told me he knew no one in the hobby, didn't bid on ebay or with any auction house. It was quite an uncomfortable call in that I repeatedly told him all I need to do is be comfortable with who he says he is. He never could or would provide that info. Very strange. Some folks think it could be Peter Nash.....and that could open up a whole nuther bag of worms. In reality he could be who he says he is but too many things didn't add up. Late last night another piece of info was revealed that makes me believe Manny could be Manny....but everything just doesn't add up. We ended the call politely with me telling him I wasn't satisfied with who he says he is. Good bye...
ps...my understanding, from a reliable source, is the investigation is ongoing as of yesterday....

1 - Interestingly coincidental that the dialogue took place yesterday and this thread was revived today. What Leon, if you can/are willing to share - prompted the conversation last night?
2 - I am a little mixed on this one. On one hand I understand and fully support the transparency the "name policy" provides. On the other hand, the facts that have been presented here still stand. I read the whole thread a while back, and don't recall Manny directly accusing anyone - just stating/sharing the facts.
3 - With the scope and money involved in this, I would be a bit hesitant to be too visible if I were the one who outed it.
4 - Another question Leon- you stated Manny couldn't prove who he was, but that you spoke for a bit - did he express any reason why he couldn't/wouldn't - do you have any suspicion about some
thing being factually off in what has been presented in this thread?
5 - As has been said a few times - a shame to lose someone who stuck his neck out to expose this.

[Leon]

1. Pure coincidence of this thread being bumped. I was going to say something soon anyway but when I saw the thread I decided to go ahead and say it. I was tipped off by another board member who showed me several things that, when put together, seemed suspicious. That is what prompted the call. When I mentioned it to another hobby veteran today he also thought the whole thing was a little weird, from the start. Some things just didn't add up.

2. Regardless of anything else, there is no absolute anonymity allowed on this board. In the time this crew (Dan and Brian too) has been running it that has always been adhered to. I imagine it will continue. For devil's advocate, what if he was an anonymous criminal who is still doing bad stuff in the hobby? He had factual evidence.. but I believe in the clean hand doctrine. Criminals (dirty hands) shouldn't be spareheading anti-crime campaigns. I am not saying Manny isn't Manny, as I don't know for sure....and I sure don't know if he has done any crime, I was only making a point concerning anonymity.

3. He absolutely didn't have to be visible whatsoever, except to a moderator (me). I told him over and over he would remain 100% private on the board otherwise.

4. To paraphrase some of what he said, he said he didn't want to be known or well known. He liked to be private. There is a chance that is all this is. Unfortunately it doesn't matter if you read 2, above, again. I can't imagine letting someone anonymously post on our board.

5. I agree completely. I didn't want to ask him to leave. That wasn't my intention at all. I have nothing against him other than this registration issue. Nothing at all. I am pretty sure I told him I would rather him be on the board but I have to be comfortable with someone's registration id and I wasn't with his. It never got resolved and we politely hung up. He would be allowed back if his id is verified better. (or at all, really)

Hope that helps clarify it. I was sort of stunned it happened but what he told me (knowing no one in the hobby and bidding no where) given all he has written on the board, seems almost impossible.

Originally Posted by hcv123

1 - Interestingly coincidental that the dialogue took place yesterday and this thread was revived today. What Leon, if you can/are willing to share - prompted the conversation last night?
2 - I am a little mixed on this one. On one hand I understand and fully support the transparency the "name policy" provides. On the other hand, the facts that have been presented here still stand. I read the whole thread a while back, and don't recall Manny directly accusing anyone - just stating/sharing the facts.
3 - With the scope and money involved in this, I would be a bit hesitant to be too visible if I were the one who outed it.
4 - Another question Leon- you stated Manny couldn't prove who he was, but that you spoke for a bit - did he express any reason why he couldn't/wouldn't - do you have any suspicion about something being factually off in what has been presented in this thread?
5 - As has been said a few times - a shame to lose someone who stuck his neck out to expose this.

[slidekellyslide]

His posting history shows he has done deals on the B/S/T...anyone here recall buying from him? Do they know who they paid? Where the package came from?

[Leon]

We talked about that. From personal experience that is not foolproof. Another coincidence that was found out today, Nash fell behind in child support and received a court order on 6/29/18. Manny tried to sell a now deunked 1887 Detroit cdv on the BST on 7/6/18. Could be just another coincidence....there are some other head scratchers too. I hope we find out it is Manny whomever and he comes back. We'll see.

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

His posting history shows he has done deals on the B/S/T...anyone here recall buying from him? Do they know who they paid? Where the package came from?

[Bigdaddy]

Just when you thought things couldn't get any stranger....

[Leon]

I have spoken with a half a dozen board members (hobby friends) the last few days. None of them had realized Manny (Setbuilder), the OP, has been banned for not being who he says he is, or at a minimum, not being able or wanting to prove his identity. Kind of weird. My guess is one id issue isn't related to the other autograph forgery issues. My guess, and this is only a guess, is this imposter might have uncovered a fraud situation without being involved other than outing it. Which is sort of the MO of who this is believed to be, or associated with. A positive id always has, and will be, required for membership here.

.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Leon

I have spoken with a half a dozen board members (hobby friends) the last few days. None of them had realized Manny (Setbuilder), the OP, has been banned for not being who he says he is, or at a minimum, not being able or wanting to prove his identity. Kind of weird. My guess is one id issue isn't related to the other autograph forgery issues. My guess, and this is only a guess, is this imposter might have uncovered a fraud situation without being involved other than outing it. Which is sort of the MO of who this is believed to be, or associated with. A positive id always has, and will be, required for membership here.

.

I obviously don't know all the 'inner" details why Manny was banned but if you were a guy responsible for outing a "huge" fake signature/forgery scam, would you really want your name out there this day and age?

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by irv

I obviously don't know all the 'inner" details why Manny was banned but if you were a guy responsible for outing a "huge" fake signature/forgery scam, would you really want your name out there this day and age?

He found pictures of the unsigned cards on the internet and matched them to pictures of the signed cards. This was all public information that anyone could’ve stumbled across. I’m not minimizing the good detective work, however it’s not like he was an informant blowing the whistle. To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

And secondly, Leon has stated repeatedly that his name would not become public.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

He found pictures of the unsigned cards on the internet and matched them to pictures of the signed cards. This was all public information that anyone could’ve stumbled across. I’m not minimizing the good detective work, however it’s not like he was an informant blowing the whistle. To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

And secondly, Leon has stated repeatedly that his name would not become public.

But nobody noticed it, or at least brought it forward but Manny?

Like I said in my above post, I don't know all the "Inner" details but if I were Manny, I don't think I'd want my full name known either. Unlike you, I happen to think a lot of money and reputations were lost on this scam being exposed, but that's just my opinion.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by irv

Unlike you, I happen to think a lot of money and reputations were lost on this scam being exposed, but that's just my opinion.

Where did I state this?

This is why you can't rationally debate a point on the internet. People just make stuff up.

[Bpm0014]

To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

What was exposed could potentially cost the forgers tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars. People have been harmed/killed for way less. I'm not trying to be dramatic at all, but many people don't appreciate someone messing with their money; illegally gained or not. I can certainly see his hesitation in giving all of his information.

[irv]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

He found pictures of the unsigned cards on the internet and matched them to pictures of the signed cards. This was all public information that anyone could’ve stumbled across. I’m not minimizing the good detective work, however it’s not like he was an informant blowing the whistle. To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

And secondly, Leon has stated repeatedly that his name would not become public.

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Where did I state this?

This is why you can't rationally debate a point on the internet. People just make stuff up.

Right above in the bolded section. The same bolded section I highlighted in my original reply to you.

Originally Posted by Bpm0014

To assert he would be in some sort of danger for pointing out pictures on public websites is a bit melodramatic.

What was exposed could potentially cost the forgers tens (if not hundreds) of thousands of dollars. People have been harmed/killed for way less. I'm not trying to be dramatic at all, but many people don't appreciate someone messing with their money; illegally gained or not. I can certainly see his hesitation in giving all of his information.

Some get it some don't I guess, Brendan.

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by irv

Right above in the bolded section. The same bolded section I highlighted in my original reply to you.

Some get it some don't I guess, Brendan.

I never stated money and reputations were NOT lost by exposing this scam. Of course they were. I just don't believe "Manny" is in danger for doing so. No more so than Chris Williams, Steve Cyrkin and other hobby crusaders who have been exposing these criminals for years.

I'm not going to waste my time reviewing my resume of exposing fakes and forgers over the past 20+ years, but I've done it all under my own name -- Steve Zarelli. And I've never lost a minutes sleep worrying about it.

Dale Irvin, I'm not going to give you anything else to mischaracterize or twist, so I'm out.

[Fred]

Does anybody remember the sitcom "Soap" that ran from 1977 - 1981?

This reminds me of that sitcom....

I have to believe that most of us don't care who the perp is at this time.

We'd just like to be re-assured that something is being done about it.

If the auction houses that sell these items only eat the losses and do nothing else because they don't want to spend the time required to resolve the issue, then that pretty much tells us the state of this hobby.

If I find out that auction houses are doing that and I find out which auction houses have done that, then I WILL NOT BID IN THEIR AUCTIONS ANY MORE. Simple as that. Unfortunately, we couldn't get a united front on that because nobody seems to give a shit....

[topcat61]

Yes, I care. This is a hobby that has given me so much

[Dpeck100]

I saw this on Facebook.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...RNzW29ps2fHznE


Looks like SGC is folding their auto business. You have to wonder if it is correlated to the happenings in this thread.

[swarmee]

Woah; then the fact that their head auto authenticator is immediately moving to Beckett isn't a great look for Beckett either.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I saw this on Facebook.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...RNzW29ps2fHznE


Looks like SGC is folding their auto business. You have to wonder if it is correlated to the happenings in this thread.

I like SGC but am very happy to see this. I doubt it has anything to do with this thread.

[mechanicalman]

Any move that allows them to focus on the authenticity and integrity of cards seems like a positive one at this point.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I like SGC but am very happy to see this. I doubt it has anything to do with this thread.

+1 unlikely that larry’s departure is related to this story

[tribefan]

What impact does this have on the value of SGC authenticated items for the future? Will they be seen as inferior to PSA, JSA, or BAS certified items?

[swarmee]

And do they retain any "guaranty" for previously authenticated autos?