Clemente or Koufax?

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

So only standing up for your beliefs counts if you're the right color?? And I'm glad to know that naming schools or parks after a person is the main thing that counts in your world. Is Thomas Jefferson going to still be considered great after the snowflakes demand his name be removed from parks, schools and other places?

You either want to argue or completely misconstrued/misunderstood what I wrote. Gonna try 1 more time and not make a history lesson out of it.

Koufax stood up for his beliefs (rightly so!) in 1 big game! Clemente faced racism most of his career including levels of despicable that I suspect Koufax never had the opportunity to know (that made it arguably harder for him to achieve greatness). Having parks and schools named after you is a sign of honor and respect - I suppose you couldn't find one named after Koufax. Not sure what you mean about the snowflake reference, but I believe the question was about Clemente or Koufax - not Jefferson!

Koufax was great

Clemente was THE Great One!

The END

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by hcv123

You either want to argue or completely misconstrued/misunderstood what I wrote. Gonna try 1 more time and not make a history lesson out of it.

Koufax stood up for his beliefs (rightly so!) in 1 big game! Clemente faced racism most of his career including levels of despicable that I suspect Koufax never had the opportunity to know (that made it arguably harder for him to achieve greatness). Having parks and schools named after you is a sign of honor and respect - I suppose you couldn't find one named after Koufax. Not sure what you mean about the snowflake reference, but I believe the question was about Clemente or Koufax - not Jefferson!

Koufax was great

Clemente was THE Great One!

The END

Let me explain something that even a three year old will understand. This thread is about opinions, not facts. There is no 'correct' answer to the question at hand. So as much as you love thinking yours is the only opinion that counts, that's all it is, YOUR OPINION. And, for the record, I didn't even say who I personally think is better, greater, bigger or whatever. And you keep talking about parks and schools, which is laughable in this context. Roberto Clemente died tragically on a mission of mercy. After the tragedy, he was honored by having countless things named after him, much like our country did with John F. Kennedy after 11/22/63. Sandy Koufax didn't die tragically. In fact, he's still alive. How often is a park or school named after a person who's still alive??? That's your benchmark for comparison??? If he died young and horribly, there would be countless sites named after him (especially in the Jewish community) as well. (But I'm sure you'd argue about that too.)

[Mark17]

Thinking about all this, I have a question for Koufax and Dodger fans. Suppose Yom Kippur had fallen on the day of Game 7 of the 1965 World Series instead of Game 1, Sandy had refused to pitch, and the Dodgers had lost?

The Dodgers capture a hard-fought pennant by just 2 games, they split the first 6 games of the World Series with their Koufax-Drysdale-Osteen rotation, Game 7 comes up, it's Yom Kippur, and Sandy says he won't pitch. Won't start, won't be available in relief, nothing. Most he will do for his team is clap his hands and offer encouragement.

And then, the next spring, he and Drysdale pull off their dual holdout which nets Sandy a $40,000 raise for 1966.

How would you feel about Koufax then, had his Yom Kippur day of rest cost his team a World Championship?

I don't really have an opinion myself, especially being a Twins fan. But I am curious if Dodger fans would have the same admiration and respect for that action had there been a big price to pay (the losing of a World Series.)

[rats60]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Let me explain something that even a three year old will understand. This thread is about opinions, not facts. There is no 'correct' answer to the question at hand. So as much as you love thinking yours is the only opinion that counts, that's all it is, YOUR OPINION. And, for the record, I didn't even say who I personally think is better, greater, bigger or whatever. And you keep talking about parks and schools, which is laughable in this context. Roberto Clemente died tragically on a mission of mercy. After the tragedy, he was honored by having countless things named after him, much like our country did with John F. Kennedy after 11/22/63. Sandy Koufax didn't die tragically. In fact, he's still alive. How often is a park or school named after a person who's still alive??? That's your benchmark for comparison??? If he died young and horribly, there would be countless sites named after him (especially in the Jewish community) as well. (But I'm sure you'd argue about that too.)

Clemente faced something that even Jackie Robinson didn't, racism from his home town fans. He was often ridiculed because he was not only black, but Hispanic and didn't speak English. It is often refered to as double racism. He suffered as much as any player in MLB history. In 1969 in San Diego he was kidnapped at gun point and taken into the hills. They put the pistol in his mouth and were ready to shoot him when Roberto was able to talk them into releasing him.

Clemente repaid all the hatred directed at him with nothing but love. He gave back to the city of Pittsburgh and to his home island of Puerto Rico. He gave his life trying to save suffering people in Nicaragua. He is the example that Hispanics look to, now over 30% of MLB. There is no one that you can compare to Roberto Clemente when it comes to on and off the field.

I grew up in LA in the 60s when Koufax was at his peak. He was known as the left arm of God. In my opinion, he is the greatest left handed pitcher of all time. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the arthritis in his left arm, he would be regarded as the greatest pitcher of all time. He put together the greatest 5 year run in MLB history while being less than 100% most of the time and missing big parts of two of the seasons. He is nothing but a class act, but he never could have the impact of Roberto Clemente.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by rats60

Clemente faced something that even Jackie Robinson didn't, racism from his home town fans. He was often ridiculed because he was not only black, but Hispanic and didn't speak English. It is often refered to as double racism. He suffered as much as any player in MLB history. In 1969 in San Diego he was kidnapped at gun point and taken into the hills. They put the pistol in his mouth and were ready to shoot him when Roberto was able to talk them into releasing him.

Clemente repaid all the hatred directed at him with nothing but love. He gave back to the city of Pittsburgh and to his home island of Puerto Rico. He gave his life trying to save suffering people in Nicaragua. He is the example that Hispanics look to, now over 30% of MLB. There is no one that you can compare to Roberto Clemente when it comes to on and off the field.

I grew up in LA in the 60s when Koufax was at his peak. He was known as the left arm of God. In my opinion, he is the greatest left handed pitcher of all time. I have no doubt that if it wasn't for the arthritis in his left arm, he would be regarded as the greatest pitcher of all time. He put together the greatest 5 year run in MLB history while being less than 100% most of the time and missing big parts of two of the seasons. He is nothing but a class act, but he never could have the impact of Roberto Clemente.

Good points, all. Again, I didn't offer an opinion on who had it worst (obviously, it was probably Clemente). I simply bristled at the fact that some people don't seem to understand what types of problems a Jewish pitcher faced at that time. (I'm from NYC and Long Island, and have a lifetime of experience with the crap my friends, relatives, girlfriends, etc. went through on a daily basis. And I've celebrated countless Chanukahs, Passovers, etc., in my life and sat Shiva way too many times.) My problem is when that other self-absorbed dipsh_t comes on and laughably attempts to condescend to me.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Good points, all. Again, I didn't offer an opinion on who had it worst (obviously, it was probably Clemente). I simply bristled at the fact that some people don't seem to understand what types of problems a Jewish pitcher faced at that time. (I'm from NYC and Long Island, and have a lifetime of experience with the crap my friends, relatives, girlfriends, etc. went through on a daily basis. And I've celebrated countless Chanukahs, Passovers, etc., in my life and sat Shiva way too many times.) My problem is when that other self-absorbed dipsh_t comes on and laughably attempts to condescend to me.

So I am going to choose to ignore the personal attack, take the higher road and share the following: If you wanted to start a thread about how hard Koufax had it as a Jew playing baseball in the 50's and 60's then why don't you go start a thread on it - I fully AGREE - there is a case to be made!! - This thread however is one where the OP was comparing 2 players - Koufax and Clemente! IMHO - On just about any measure (except for pitching) on or off the field there is no comparison - that is the point I was simply trying to make. For the record - I am Jewish - have faced antisemitism and celebrated numerous holidays too!! Happy Passover - enjoy your second seder

[rats60]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Good points, all. Again, I didn't offer an opinion on who had it worst (obviously, it was probably Clemente). I simply bristled at the fact that some people don't seem to understand what types of problems a Jewish pitcher faced at that time. (I'm from NYC and Long Island, and have a lifetime of experience with the crap my friends, relatives, girlfriends, etc. went through on a daily basis. And I've celebrated countless Chanukahs, Passovers, etc., in my life and sat Shiva way too many times.) My problem is when that other self-absorbed dipsh_t comes on and laughably attempts to condescend to me.

Yes, but it was Clemente that was kept off the Dodgers roster because of his heritage while Koufax was given a roster spot for 2 years in which he barely pitched.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by rats60

Yes, but it was Clemente that was kept off the Dodgers roster because of his heritage while Koufax was given a roster spot for 2 years in which he barely pitched.

The Dodgers were forced to keep him on the roster for that amount of time because he signed for a bonus. That was the rule back then. In fact when the Dodgers and Sandy & his dad agreed to terms, the first thing the Dodgers had to do was get rid of a player to make room on the roster for Sandy. Everybody knew he wasn't big league ready, but the Pirates, Giants, and Braves were after him too, so that's how the Dodgers had to play it.

[Bigdaddy]

Just remember guys, no right answer here. Just 'Which one do you prefer?'

Like Mary Ann or Ginger.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Mark17

The Dodgers were forced to keep him on the roster for that amount of time because he signed for a bonus. That was the rule back then. In fact when the Dodgers and Sandy & his dad agreed to terms, the first thing the Dodgers had to do was get rid of a player to make room on the roster for Sandy. Everybody knew he wasn't big league ready, but the Pirates, Giants, and Braves were after him too, so that's how the Dodgers had to play it.

The Dodgers signed Roberto Clemente to a bonus too. They wanted to keep him on the roster, but asked Jackie Robinson's opinion since he was the team leader. When told that they would have to release a popular white player, Jackie said it would be best to not add another black (latin?) player. The Dodgers sent him to the minors, but everyone knew Clemente was a future star and the Pirates took him with the first pick of the Rule 5 draft.

Imagine how great the Dodgers would have been through the 60s with both Clemente and Koufax. My point is that when faced with keeping a player on the roster who was not ready for the majors, the Dodgers had no problem finding a spot for Koufax. However, for Clemente it was his race that kept him off the team.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

He put together the greatest 5 year run in MLB history while being less than 100% most of the time and missing big parts of two of the seasons.

No disrespect intended towards Koufax, who was a phenomenal pitcher, but Pedro Martinez' seven year peak blows Koufax's five out of the water.

Koufax 1962-1966:
111 W-34 L (.766 PCT), 1.95 ERA, per 162 G average: 34 starts, 289 K, 63 BB. 0.926 WHIP, 2.00 FIP, 167 ERA+, 6.3 H, 0.6 HR, 9.4 K and 2.1 BB/9 IP, 4.57 K:BB.

Martinez 1997-2003:
118 W-36 L (.766 PCT), 2.20 ERA, per 162 G average: 34 starts, 300 K, 54 BB. 0.940 WHIP, 2.26 FIP, 213 ERA+, 6.4 H, 0.6 HR, 11.3 K and 2.0 BB/9 IP, 5.59 K:BB.

Koufax won three Cy Youngs and finished 3rd another season.
Martinez won three Cy Youngs, finished 2nd two other times, and 3rd another.

Koufax' year by year ERA+: 143, 159, 186, 160, 190
Martinez' year by year ERA+: 219, 163, 243, 291, 188, 202, 211

Between 1962-1966, the average OPS in the National League was .691.
Between 1997 and 2003, the average OPS In the American League was .771.

The two pitchers had virtually identical home runs, walks and hits allowed per 9 innings. They had comparable WHIP (Koufax 0.926, Martinez 0.940) and FIP (2.00 Koufax, 2.26 Martinez). Martinez struck out 2 more batters per 9 innings.

The difference is that while putting up highly comparable numbers, Martinez did it playing in an era where offense was clearly at a premium.