Recolored 1888 N162 Cap Anson from SGC 1.5 to PSA 4

[swarmee]

Then I'd love for the current owner to chime in with the card condition in hand.

[t206fanatic]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Then I'd love for the current owner to chime in with the card condition in hand.

I bought this Anson in the latest PWCC auction. Really appreciate everyone bringing the changes to my attention.

Having the card in hand, I believe like a poster above said that there was residue and paper scrap on the card, and those have been removed. I can't see any evidence of recoloring or filling, and the black dots on the top left are on the case & not the card.

[vintagetoppsguy]

You might want to take another look at your card. I don't have the advantage of having the card in hand but, to me, that sure looks like paper loss on the front that was filled in with color. Heck, the color doesn't even match and you can still see what appears to be paper loss that wasn't filled in all the way.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You might want to take another look at your card. I don't have the advantage of having the card in hand but, to me, that sure looks like paper loss on the front that was filled in with color. Heck, the color doesn't even match and you can still see what appears to be paper loss that wasn't filled in all the way.

Pretty sure the doctor removed extra paper on front and back. You can see it better in hi-res on the Heritage website:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...umbnail-071515

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Pretty sure the doctor removed extra paper on front and back. You can see it better in hi-res on the Heritage website:

https://sports.ha.com/itm/baseball/1...umbnail-071515

You can still see the same pattern on what appears to be the area that was colored in. IF it was additional paper that was removed, how does the pattern remain the same?

Either way, that top left corner is paper loss. No question about that. PSA 4?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Either way, that top left corner is paper loss. No question about that. PSA 4?

Here's what the top left border should look like.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Either way, that top left corner is paper loss. No question about that. PSA 4?

I can't quibble with you on that. Looks like what I'd imagine a rebuilt corner might look like, but can't say I've seen many of those - intentionally. This Kevin Saucier article on rebuilding corners was re-posted on Blowout. I recall when it first made its rounds on Net54 12 years ago.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ard-to-detect/

.
.
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I can't quibble with you on that. Looks like what I'd imagine a rebuilt corner might look like, but can't say I've seen many of those - intentionally. This Kevin Saucier article on rebuilding corners was re-posted on Blowout. I recall when it first made its rounds on Net54 12 years ago.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ard-to-detect/

.
.
.

Good old Kevin. I remember here years and years ago when Kevin was offering a service to review your slabbed cards for a second opinion on alteration, Jim Crandell was touting his expertise, and when I asked Jim how many of HIS cards Kevin had revewed, he said none.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by t206fanatic

I bought this Anson in the latest PWCC auction. Really appreciate everyone bringing the changes to my attention.

Having the card in hand, I believe like a poster above said that there was residue and paper scrap on the card, and those have been removed. I can't see any evidence of recoloring or filling, and the black dots on the top left are on the case & not the card.

Thanks for the update. It seems odd that there would be paper affixed to the front of the card and that it was originally submitted that way to SGC last year. I would still recommend sending it to PSA for a review. If you like the card, and they agree it is overgraded, you will get the card back in a lower numbered slab and a check for the difference between what you paid and the value of the new grade.
Are the remaining white spots on the front paper loss as well or still additional paper adhered?

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by swarmee

It seems odd that there would be paper affixed to the front of the card

If you were stuck in a scrapbook for 100+ years you might have some paper shards stuck in your mustache and on your sleeve too The scraps on the fronts are usually a result of excess paste/glue on the fingertips of the original owner touching the card when gluing it down. Over time the front of the card touching the opposing page, or possibly being accidentally swiped over with more sticky fingers. Don't forget that scrapbooks were a work in progress. I've handled many Victorian scrapbooks where there is paper shrapnel on fronts and backs, and many other types of debris. Not odd at all when you have experience with 19th century ephemera. My 2c

[pokerplyr80]

This thread is a good example of why we shouldn't jump to conclusions or present speculation as fact. Without getting into the whole conservation vs alteration mess there is a difference in my opinion between removing excess paper or scrap book residue and recoloring a card, rebuilding a corner, trimming, etc.

We should be especially careful when making claims like this about cards that are live in current auctions.

[JeremyW]

How does PSA miss that upper left corner? T206fanatic, if you decide to keep the card, I'd send it to PSA & get a partial refund on their grading mistake.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

This thread is a good example of why we shouldn't jump to conclusions or present speculation as fact. Without getting into the whole conservation vs alteration mess there is a difference in my opinion between removing excess paper or scrap book residue and recoloring a card, rebuilding a corner, trimming, etc.

We should be especially careful when making claims like this about cards that are live in current auctions.

The card sure looks like it's been re-colored to me. Look at the spot on the left of the card that I believe to be paper loss. Now see my pics below. The pic on the left is from the Heritage Auction. The pic on the right is from the PWCC auction. In the PWCC auction you can see what appears to me to be the same spot filled in with color. If you look real hard, you can still see the same pattern of paper loss even through the added color. You can also see what appears to be a small speck of white where the added color wasn't filled in all the way. It's there. Now maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's really something else other than added color? That's a possibility. But there is definitely something there and I see it. If the owner of the card wants to conveniently overlook it, that's fine. He can also conveniently overlook the paper loss in the upper left corner and believe it's really a PSA 4 if he wants to.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The card sure looks like it's been re-colored to me. Look at the spot on the left of the card that I believe to be paper loss. Now see my pics below. The pic on the left is from the Heritage Auction. The pic on the right is from the PWCC auction. In the PWCC auction you can see what appears to me to be the same spot filled in with color. If you look real hard, you can still see the same pattern of paper loss even through the added color. You can also see what appears to be a small speck of white where the added color wasn't filled in all the way. It's there. Now maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's really something else other than added color? That's a possibility. But there is definitely something there and I see it. If the owner of the card wants to conveniently overlook it, that's fine. He can also conveniently overlook the paper loss in the upper left corner and believe it's really a PSA 4 if he wants to.

I tend to believe the guy with the card in hand, even if his opinion is biased. As he is the one who owns the card it doesn't really matter what the rest of us think. And regardless of whether it's been soaked, recolored, or isn't altered at all it's a nice looking card that I wouldn't mind having in my collection.

[boneheadandrube]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The card sure looks like it's been re-colored to me. Look at the spot on the left of the card that I believe to be paper loss. Now see my pics below. The pic on the left is from the Heritage Auction. The pic on the right is from the PWCC auction. In the PWCC auction you can see what appears to me to be the same spot filled in with color. If you look real hard, you can still see the same pattern of paper loss even through the added color. You can also see what appears to be a small speck of white where the added color wasn't filled in all the way. It's there. Now maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's really something else other than added color? That's a possibility. But there is definitely something there and I see it. If the owner of the card wants to conveniently overlook it, that's fine. He can also conveniently overlook the paper loss in the upper left corner and believe it's really a PSA 4 if he wants to.

It's probably small spots of paper loss where the stuck piece lifted some of the surface off with it when it was removed. The pattern could just be that the surface underneath was covered for so long that the color is darker from less exposure. Ever taken a sticker off of something that was outside for awhile and the surface underneath was un-faded?

The 19th century scrapbooks I've come across have had dozens of non-sport cards just like the Anson, pasted or glued in them. When you remove by soaking them there isn't always a clean separation from the pages. The card is 131 years old, if it had paper shards stuck to it for that long there's a good chance some of the ink surface fused with the glue and came off. I can't justify the grade at all but a couple people are really wanting this to be a color touch up when its likely not. If it was they sure did a crappy job leaving a bunch of tiny spots!

[HasselhoffsCheeseburger]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The card sure looks like it's been re-colored to me. Look at the spot on the left of the card that I believe to be paper loss. Now see my pics below. The pic on the left is from the Heritage Auction. The pic on the right is from the PWCC auction. In the PWCC auction you can see what appears to me to be the same spot filled in with color. If you look real hard, you can still see the same pattern of paper loss even through the added color. You can also see what appears to be a small speck of white where the added color wasn't filled in all the way. It's there. Now maybe my eyes are playing tricks on me and it's really something else other than added color? That's a possibility. But there is definitely something there and I see it. If the owner of the card wants to conveniently overlook it, that's fine. He can also conveniently overlook the paper loss in the upper left corner and believe it's really a PSA 4 if he wants to.

I think there's a distinction in color in the area where the paper was compared to the rest of the card. I don't think it's due to recoloring, but, rather, the ink under the paper having not been exposed to the elements for the past ~130 years the way the rest of the card's front was. We're talking about a difference in color that's so slight that even having blown the image up, what, 10x?, it's still a case of some people see it and some don't. With such a subtle change I think my theory seems more logical than PSA missing multiple recolored spots.