Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Agree with Corey 100% that nearly all high end T-206's have been tampered with, and likewise that nobody cares as long as they are numerically slabbed.

It's possible that the original intent of third party grading was to objectively grade and authenticate cards, but the way the industry evolved their job now is to make cards as marketable as possible, and to mint money for their clients.

I don't think that's entirely fair. PSA is for the most part grading very strictly -- higher grades obviously would bring in a lot more money -- and they reject tons of cards which if slabbed would make lots of money. What I think you're missing is that card doctors are very very good, or some of them, and without a crime lab and without the before and after photos that make alteration obvious that you see on Blowout, it's pretty tough sometimes to tell.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think that's entirely fair. PSA is for the most part grading very strictly -- higher grades obviously would bring in a lot more money -- and they reject tons of cards which if slabbed would make lots of money. What I think you're missing is that card doctors are very very good, or some of them, and without a crime lab and without the before and after photos that make alteration obvious that you see on Blowout, it's pretty tough sometimes to tell.

I think Peter is spot on. And it’s the same with forged signatures. As long as a slabbed card is accepted as a liquid asset, criminals will be flooding the grading companies trying to get worthless garbage into their holders. PSA, SGC, and Beckett are all very good at sorting through the garbage, but well done fraud will sneak in occasionally. And if it gets caught by enterprising collectors with days and weeks of research, it highlights the limitations of the system.

If you want to spend thousands on graded cards, you must accept that system that graded your card very likely devoted less than a minute or two on your card.

Someone really ought to invent a grading company for high end cards, where the company spends a few days at least on each individual card that gets submitted — check each paper fiber, get a few different eyes in each card, do some research into the history of the card on-line and otherwise, build a database of crooked submitters that gets shared with the FBI and local law enforcement, keep records of each card and track the history going forward, with a digital notification if the seal ever gets broken, and other fun stuff I’m just making up.

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

I think Peter is spot on. And it’s the same with forged signatures. As long as a slabbed card is accepted as a liquid asset, criminals will be flooding the grading companies trying to get worthless garbage into their holders. PSA, SGC, and Beckett are all very good at sorting through the garbage, but well done fraud will sneak in occasionally. And if it gets caught by enterprising collectors with days and weeks of research, it highlights the limitations of the system.

If you want to spend thousands on graded cards, you must accept that system that graded your card very likely devoted less than a minute or two on your card.

Someone really ought to invent a grading company for high end cards, where the company spends a few days at least on each individual card that gets submitted — check each paper fiber, get a few different eyes in each card, do some research into the history of the card on-line and otherwise, build a database of crooked submitters that gets shared with the FBI and local law enforcement, keep records of each card and track the history going forward, with a digital notification if the seal ever gets broken, and other fun stuff I’m just making up.

The PSA grader is overworked. They clearly do not have enough help in that area if you consider their turnaround times are double and triple of what they say they are.

And a grading service for only high end cards would not work unless it said PSA on the label. I would bet the large majority would not want their cards scrutinized to that extent also. It would be a money losing proposition for anyone who tried it (except for maybe PSA).

[barrysloate]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't think that's entirely fair. PSA is for the most part grading very strictly -- higher grades obviously would bring in a lot more money -- and they reject tons of cards which if slabbed would make lots of money. What I think you're missing is that card doctors are very very good, or some of them, and without a crime lab and without the before and after photos that make alteration obvious that you see on Blowout, it's pretty tough sometimes to tell.

So why aren't they developing technology that will help to spot these alterations? If a painting has been restored and you shine a black light on it, the modern work is easy to detect. It seems to me the same technology can be used on cads. To use a common phrase, they can land a man on the moon but they can't detect card doctoring?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

So why aren't they developing technology that will help to spot these alterations? If a painting has been restored and you shine a black light on it, the modern work is easy to detect. It seems to me the same technology can be used on cads. To use a common phrase, they can land a man on the moon but they can't detect card doctoring?

False equivalency.

Go back and read VCBC 7. These people are very sophisticated.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

False equivalency.

Go back and read VCBC 7. These people are very sophisticated.

But wouldn't it depend on the type of doctoring? Obviously a black light isn't going to detect a water soaking or a trim job, but it should detect added paper (building up corners) or re-coloring, right?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

But wouldn't it depend on the type of doctoring? Obviously a black light isn't going to detect a water soaking or a trim job, but it should detect added paper (building up corners) or re-coloring, right?

I would think unless they have come up with ways to pass a black light test, which I agree seems unlikely. I don't think, though, that that's where the major alteration is taking place, I think it's trimming, filing, taking out creases, laying down corners.

[barrysloate]

Then if it is in fact impossible to detect sophisticated alterations, then what is the purpose of the whole third party grading business? To make cards marketable, and to make sure as many clients as possible are making money with slabbed material.

[jchcollins]

Maybe a new TPG could be started, even by somebody here - with a focus only on authentication and detection of attempts at altering - along the lines of earilier suggestions where that and that alone, not a numerical grade - is what is important. My fear of course is that we would be in the vast minority with something like that, and it would not be a sustainable business.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Then if it is in fact impossible to detect sophisticated alterations, then what is the purpose of the whole third party grading business? To make cards marketable, and to make sure as many clients as possible are making money with slabbed material.

I asked the same question in another thread, just in a different way. I was told it was to "add value" to the card. Well, the card doctors are certainly doing that.

[conor912]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

To use a common phrase, they can land a man on the moon but they can't detect card doctoring?

Two very different "theys". One set of "they" were literally rocket scientists. The other, well, aren't.