Please show your PRE-American Tobacco Company cigarette pack(s)

[oldjudge]

Joe--What about the N167s? They predate Dec., 1886.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Joe--What about the N167s? They predate Dec., 1886.

Yes, this is a bit of a mystery. I'm hopeful that a source will surface that helps explain this. It is possible Goodwin made the transition to slide and shell box before the date provided in Tobacco Journal article which was written in early 1890. Perhaps N167s were given away at point of sale in advance of the slide and shell or maybe they were distributed in Dec. 1886 in a slide and shell box that was supposed to be available earlier . . . a mystery for now.

[oldjudge]

So you are saying that it is possible that N167s were issued at the same time as Spotted Ties? Wouldn't that elevate Spotted Ties to the first conventional baseball card set (Tied with N167s) ever? We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

[Joe_G.]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

So you are saying that it is possible that N167s were issued at the same time as Spotted Ties? Wouldn't that elevate Spotted Ties to the first conventional baseball card set (Tied with N167s) ever? We may have to agree to disagree on this one.

I'm not stating N167s are tied with Spotted Ties but here is what we can state factually:

Period literature (Feb. 21st, 1890 Tobacco Journal) states Goodwin made transition from paper pack to slide and shell box in Dec. 1886.



The rest is speculation. The Tobacco Journal could be in error but I tend to believe it.

Paper packs would not provide a good source for cards, they would be creased and rounded based on how the cigarettes were packaged.

N167 cards could have been distributed before the transition to slide and shell box but it likely would not have been as a cigarette pack insert. They could have been distributed at point of sale, perhaps a handful per case.

Goodwin may have planned to have the boxes available before Dec. 1886 and had the cards printed at an earlier date and then held them until the Whiting Co. delivered first boxes in Dec. 1886. The Whiting Box Co. was very busy trying to fill orders for Duke and the rest, this was a booming business.

Or maybe N167 had a very short run as did Spotted Ties/script cards leading up to early 1887.

It's also not unheard of for these early cards to be based on one timeframe but be issued at a later date. Allen & Ginter, for example, debuted the N29 cards in August of 1889 showing Getzien with Detroit (a team that had disbanded at close of 1888 season). Goodwin would issue cards of players after they retired (Mathews) or even passed (Ferguson and McKinnon - GQ was likely issued after his death).

Lots of possibilities, I am still hopeful that more details will surface that help us piece the puzzle together.

[oldjudge]

That's a great article--thanks Joe!

[jerrys]

Thanks for all that information.

As mentioned about your book. I look at things from an engineering point of view. The following facts may no longer be available but it would be interesting to know the answers. They are also not necessary for inclusion. Sorry if I overlooked anything on this list that are in your book.

Quality and size of the card stock. (1/16”X12”X16”?)
Type of printing presses. Lythopress?
Production rate:
One side, one color, one pass through the press?
Number per hour.
Drying method - Cutting tools - Storage.
Choosing and notifying players to be photographed.
Notification of product availability (press release) (advertising)
Method of assembly:
Card and other material inserted in pack.
Overprinting Tax Stamp.
Sealing Old Judge pack.
Distribution method.

The Bonsack patent was register in 1881 but it did work properly until 1885. That is why A&G turned it down in the early years.
There were two other cigarette rolling machines invented during that same time period but I don’t remember the name of one associated with Goodwin. The other was a Russian machine about 1890.

[oldjudge]

This tool was apparently used in the pack assembly process. The main piece is the exact size of a pack. It says American Tobacco Co. so it is 1890 or later. It also sports the Gypsy Queen name.