Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO because the card doctors are better at trimming than PSA is at detecting particularly under the constraints PSA likely imposes on its graders in terms of equipment and time.

Somehow I doubt that's the whole answer

[Frank A]

The true answer is that a few greedy pigs would ruin the whole hobby for MONEY. You have people who are trimming, doctoring, restoring(joke) and conserving and whatever else that makes the card a FAKE. Then comes the unethical dealers who don't give a shit who they screw because it's all about money anyway. They are a total disgrace to the hobby and should be shunned as such. But worst of all are the so called third party graders who are giving number grades to this crap. When these so called graders started in this hobby it was for the betterment of the hobby, separating good from bad and grading to keep everything equal. HAA! They have failed miserably and really don't care. They blame everyone but themselves. Their story is they can only find so many good graders. BULLSHIT. They don't have any good graders if this CRAP is getting by them. I hope to hell all of the company's involved in this crap go down. They are taking money under false pretenses and need to go away.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Somehow I doubt that's the whole answer

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well don't be cryptic share what you think so we can discuss?

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

I've never heard any credible evidence for that theory, but I understand why people would believe it in the face of so many mistakes. That said, after two and a half decades, some disgruntled employee surely would have said something if that were the case.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Praying it's not a "graders are being paid under the table" conspiracy

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

But PWCC is clean.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by calvindog

But PWCC is clean.

It's not looking good right now but I haven't seen enough to say for certain. If you were defending Brent based on the evidence released to date could you get him off?

I don't think I you can hold an auction house responsible for selling altered cards that were good enough to make it through PSA or SGC. Even if someone did pay off a grade or 2 to get them through.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

It's not looking good right now but I haven't seen enough to say for certain. If you were defending Brent based on the evidence released to date could you get him off?

I don't think I you can hold an auction house responsible for selling altered cards that were good enough to make it through PSA or SGC. Even if someone did pay off a grade or 2 to get them through.

You clearly know the law very well. On what basis are you even opining about what it is? Seriously?

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Given the amount of money at stake I'd be much more surprised to find out that graders aren't being paid under the table.

once again we agree, and it's not my Kelsey Grammer this time...

[Fuddjcal]

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PSA, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I think the thing that just rubs me the wrong way is that the cards are being purchased by the DR's from PWCC. They then crack it out, doctor it up and give it back to PWCC to submit to PS, to get a higher grade and Then sell it again with PWCC??? LOL. If that ain't a crock of smelly dung, I don't know what is. Nice business model PWCC. you don't have a clue? Sure you don't.

PWCC knows Exactly what they are doing , IMHO and it is very shady to say the least. I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

Yesyesyes

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I hope I'm alive to see PSA become GAI.

+1

I think there are many parties involved. All it takes is for one to get caught and then that person will start turning on others. I truly believe it will happen soon.

[jchcollins]

Just out of curiosity, what do you all think the run-of-the-mill collector picking up either pre- or postwar cards at shows in the 1980's and 90's really dealt with in terms of trimming / alterations? Supposedly the "rampant" level of it back then was why PSA came to be in the first place. Was it worse then? Worse now with what we are seeing out of PWCC?

Just curious as to what some of the speculated difference in the eras was. I was a kid collector back then who would have been totally blindsided by trimming, but I generally couldn't afford vintage with sharp corners anyway - so maybe I lucked out.

[benjulmag]

Post 244 in this thread lists PSA's warranty reserves as of 6/30/18 to be $862K.

Suppose hypothetically there is a cost efficient forensic method available that can CONCLUSIVELY establish that a card has been altered? For example, maybe there is a way to show untrimmed borders exposed to the elements have different physical characteristics than recently trimmed borders. Or that a worked-on corner has a different paper density than an unworked-on corner. Or perhaps the bringing out of a residue crease line from a spooned-out crease. What do you think PSA's potential warranty exposure could be?

I get it that the way the warranty reads PSA must agree with the finding. But it would seem to me that if the finding is based on scientific fact, I don't see how legally PSA could ultimately avoid paying on the warranty. Based on the potentially staggering number of high grade vintage cards that could be required to be materially downgraded, it would seem to me that the warranty reserve is a fraction of what could be needed.

It intrigues me how PSA seems to be merrily going along continuing to give these vintage cards such high grades while, to use Peter's phrase, there appears to be this ticking time bomb. Can they really be so confident that the day will not come when such forensic testing becomes the norm and the bottom falls out? Is it possible they really do believe that all these high grade vintage cards are in fact unaltered? If I was running the company, based on what I believe to be the case of alteration being the rule not the exception for these cards, I would be very worried about the long-term financial implications of their current business model.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Meanwhile, the card at the focus of the restored/conserved/altered discussion, the 52T Mantle from PWCC, apparently has not been paid for.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

Suppose hypothetically there is a cost efficient forensic method available that can CONCLUSIVELY establish that a card has been altered? For example, maybe there is a way to show untrimmed borders exposed to the elements have different physical characteristics than recently trimmed borders. Or that a worked-on corner has a different paper density than an unworked-on corner. Or perhaps the bringing out of a residue crease line from a spooned-out crease.

For the first two, the answer is that that technology already exists, and has for a long time.
A 40X magnifier and some knowledge will usually cover them easily. The 40X magnifer is <$10. My first one cost 7 at a antique shop that sells supplies, my next few were about 2 each in a lot on ebay. (5 for 10?) 10 for 20? I don't remember. )
The knowledge is a bit harder to come by, but it's out there.

I'm not sure about a spooned out crease. To my knowledge I don't own any cards with that. It should be detectable.

I believe that in theory it should be possible to trim a card so that almost can't be detected. Almost. It would take some fairly involved equipment, but nothing that isn't readily available.

Some modern cards will be really hard. Some of the Topps Gypsy Queen base cards are a combination of die cut and knife cut. Different edges have different qualities right out of the pack.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

For the first two, the answer is that that technology already exists, and has for a long time.
A 40X magnifier and some knowledge will usually cover them easily. The 40X magnifer is <$10. My first one cost 7 at a antique shop that sells supplies, my next few were about 2 each in a lot on ebay. (5 for 10?) 10 for 20? I don't remember. )
The knowledge is a bit harder to come by, but it's out there.

I'm not sure about a spooned out crease. To my knowledge I don't own any cards with that. It should be detectable.

I believe that in theory it should be possible to trim a card so that almost can't be detected. Almost. It would take some fairly involved equipment, but nothing that isn't readily available.

Some modern cards will be really hard. Some of the Topps Gypsy Queen base cards are a combination of die cut and knife cut. Different edges have different qualities right out of the pack.

I would think, and maybe I'm wrong, that unless you trim all four edges, at some level of magnification the trimmed edges will look different from the others in some way, despite efforts to make them look the same post-trimming.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I would think, and maybe I'm wrong, that unless you trim all four edges, at some level of magnification the trimmed edges will look different from the others in some way, despite efforts to make them look the same post-trimming.

Even trimming all four, getting a new edge looking like an old edge is hard. Maybe not impossible, but very hard.

[drcy]

The science used in other areas of collecting and history is so sophisticated that, for example, it can tell you when an artifact was buried in the ground by measuring the atomic energy released since it was hidden from sunlight.

Yes, I think science could be used to conclusively identify all sorts of alterations, including trimming, in trading cards.

Whenever I'm asked to examine an item, I ask "Where'd you get it?" The answer may just be that they picked it up in a garage sale or found it in an attic, but I expect an answer. If it was bought in an auction, I always check out the auction listing.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by steve B

For the first two, the answer is that that technology already exists, and has for a long time.
A 40X magnifier and some knowledge will usually cover them easily. The 40X magnifer is <$10. My first one cost 7 at a antique shop that sells supplies, my next few were about 2 each in a lot on ebay. (5 for 10?) 10 for 20? I don't remember. )
The knowledge is a bit harder to come by, but it's out there.

I'm not sure about a spooned out crease. To my knowledge I don't own any cards with that. It should be detectable.

I believe that in theory it should be possible to trim a card so that almost can't be detected. Almost. It would take some fairly involved equipment, but nothing that isn't readily available.

Some modern cards will be really hard. Some of the Topps Gypsy Queen base cards are a combination of die cut and knife cut. Different edges have different qualities right out of the pack.

I'm not challenging the accuracy of what you are saying, but simply expressing my amazement about the implications of what this means. So PSA slabs vintage cards with high grades, knowing that collectors will rely on those grades to justify in some instances spending mega mega bucks to buy the cards at auction. And then should (when?) the day come that it is revealed that these cards are altered and worth a fraction of what they sold for, and PSA receives claims to make good on their warranty, they just fork over the money? As I said before, based on how the warranty currently reads, assuming the scientific finality of such forensic conclusions, that is one interesting business model.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I'm not challenging the accuracy of what you are saying, but simply expressing my amazement about the implications of what this means. So PSA slabs vintage cards with high grades, knowing that collectors will rely on those grades to justify in some instances spending mega mega bucks to buy the cards at auction. And then should (when?) the day come that it is revealed that these cards are altered and worth a fraction of what they sold for, and PSA receives claims to make good on their warranty, they just fork over the money? As I said before, based on how the warranty currently reads, assuming the scientific finality of such forensic conclusions, that is one interesting business model.

If it becomes too much of a burden I assume PSA will just revoke it. The train is running so fast I'm not sure anything could slow it down at this point. I don't think most people even care. You and I are from an era where the notion of altering a card was anathema. I'm not sure the newer folks spending megabucks these days have the same view. Heck, a guy spent well into 6 figures on a Jordan card that even PSA said was altered.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If it becomes too much of a burden I assume PSA will just revoke it. The train is running so fast I'm not sure anything could slow it down at this point. I don't think most people even care. You and I are from an era where the notion of altering a card was anathema. I'm not sure the newer folks spending megabucks these days have the same view. Heck, a guy spent well into 6 figures on a Jordan card that even PSA said was altered.

I'm not saying you are incorrect in this assessment, but wouldn't that be something -- a company revoking a warranty because the product was so defective it became too expensive to keep it. That would make some interesting advertising fodder for competitors.

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If these are the same card, this is pretty bad.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1188

[chalupacollects]

BTW, I'm not persuaded that in time people will not begin (have to) care. Maybe collectors in today's era for the most part do not care. Maybe they have doubts about what has been done to the card but feel protected because of the high number grade on the slab. But it just seems to me that if a person or two undertakes such testing and publicizes the results, that trickle could slowly gain momentum. The perception could grow that a card's grade bears little correlation to its true condition. And it is that shift in public perception that could materially impact a person's assessment of the investment potential of these cards, which could be the impetus for change.

So maybe people are buying the holder and not the card? What then would happen if the TPG's implode based on current events/scandals. How would those folks feel then? What would they do?