Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

Peter_Spaeth · #1 05-21-2019, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

In the comic book world it’s fairly standard that restored label books sell for about 25%-50% of similar unrestored examples. It it varies depending on the rarity of the book.

I feel like the comic industry is a step ahead of cards. Really love the video I referenced as its very clear that a TPG could single handily change the problems we see today. We could learn a lot by opening up these doors.

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing? No skilled card doctor is going to say oh please designate my card restored so it can be worth 25-50 percent.

ullmandds · #2 05-21-2019, 09:54 PM

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

Kenny Cole · #3 05-21-2019, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Additionally such a large percentage of known cards especially vintage are already in slabs...at a great cost. Good luck getting people to crack them all out at additional costs. I do not see that ever happening.

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

Goudey77 · #4 05-21-2019, 10:28 PM

Watch the video I referenced. It�ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it�s impossible for TPG�s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It�s the next stage. Time to step it up.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-21-2019, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Watch the video I referenced. It’ll open your eyes to what is possible here.
Comic books are so much more detailed with multiple pages to analyze. You are telling me it’s impossible for TPG’s to assess a single card properly?

If CGC can do it. If PCGS can do it. It’s the next stage. Time to step it up.

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

Kenny Cole · #6 05-21-2019, 10:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

TPGs could do it to some extent but not for the fees and turnaround times people demand and bitch about already, IMO.

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people for bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria when they don't.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

Peter_Spaeth · #7 05-21-2019, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

The turnaround times that people demand and bitch about are those which the TPGs advertise as being what is going to occur. Kind of hard for me to criticize people of bitching about the TPGs not even coming close to meeting their own stated criteria.

In terms of price, that's probably somewhat more fair. But again, they set their pricing criteria. I can't increase my fee because the case was lots harder than I originally thought it would be when my client signed my contract. Why can a TPG? I have a big level of discomfort with a higher cost "we'll probably have a higher chance to get it right if we have more time" level of grading given that "getting it right" has been the stated promise since TPG began. But i'm sure not seeing it right now, at least not on the examples shown on BO and elsewhere. If they need more time, say that. Don't make fraudulent promises that you know can't be fulfilled.

You don't think people would bitch if TPGs formally changed their stated turnaround times and raised their fees? Dream on, in the words of Steven Tyler. People want it both ways. They want crime lab like scrutiny at minimal cost and quickly.

Goudey77 · #8 05-21-2019, 10:59 PM

Kenny brings up a good point that has never come up in any of the comments.
How does PSA charge $1k or more on certain service levels and not catch a conservation job. Is there a certain level of tolerance when it comes to conservation measures? TPG�s could benefit from updating their standards at a minimum. To be fair more attention to detail is welcome at the $1k service level. Please and thank you.

Peter_Spaeth · #9 05-21-2019, 10:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Years ago, Jim Crandall led the charge against altered cards. As long as they weren't his graded cards. I ate his ass out back then, but I get it. Can't blame him. It would not make much sense IMO to pay a ton for a card and then take the potentially huge financial hickey later.

What I can say is that when someone breaks a card out and resubmits it raw, whether a card doctor or a speculator, that's an entirely different story. They chose to take that risk and the card should then be graded appropriately. I know, that assumes that the TPG has the capacity to do that, which I have no confidence at all can occur. But isn't that what a TPG is supposed to do and what they represent they can do? So where do we go from here?

Hopefully the TPGs can find some way to step up their game, and hopefully law enforcement can make examples of a few people that will at least incrementally deter bad conduct.

ullmandds · #10 05-21-2019, 10:31 PM

Ya...6 minutes was plenty! The problem with this video and comparing the baseball card hobby to comics becomes clear in the first five minutes. They stated very early on that the comic book hobby was not mature enough such that subtle differences in grades affected value...When this guy started restoring comic books and merged his company with the grading company. So restoration was being done very early on in the continuum of grading within the comic book Hobby.

This scenario is quite the opposite of what is going on in the baseball card hobby these days.

Another apples to oranges bullshit analogy to justify devious behavior on the part of your friends...in my humble opinion.

Peter_Spaeth · #11 05-21-2019, 10:39 PM

As I understand it, originality has always been crucial for baseball cards because with so many examples of most cards in existence, condition is the real differentiator. And that would not work if improving condition was permissible. Now sure they may be a niche market for people who just want a great looking card regardless of originality, but I don't think that's going to go mainstream.

Goudey77 · #12 05-21-2019, 10:41 PM

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea of a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG or card doctor for that matter.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 05-21-2019, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Not bullshit analogy Pete. How did the card industry function before TPG’s. When everything was raw? Deals were made on handshakes and dollars with no guarantees. How in the world guys adopted the idea is a Third Party Grader telling them what condition their cards are baffles me? I still run into old school card guys who talk negatively towards TPG’s. Reality is that the card hobby is evolving and incidents like the ones being brought to light are an indication that we need some change.

To undo what’s been done is possible. There is always a clear path forward. What CGC did is possible with card TPG’s. Resist the idea all you want but you are only hurting yourself and this hobby by being stubborn to change. To throw up your hands and say nothing can be done other than to take matters into our own hands is irresponsible and a free pass to the guys making money off the idea of being a TPG.

I think you had two things happening more or less at the same time, card doctoring was rampant so there was a market for what people believed was good third party authentication, and more and more business was done not in person. It's the internet that ultimately made TPGs I think even if PSA started a little before.

drcy · #14 05-21-2019, 11:01 PM

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

Goudey77 · #15 05-21-2019, 09:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing?

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations �past� the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG�s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that�s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven �loophole� of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not �matured� in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren�t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the �game�.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 05-21-2019, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations “past” the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG’s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that’s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven “loophole” of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not “matured” in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren’t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the “game”.

I don't follow your logic at all. They sell for less only if they're caught. Your stated premise is that the problem we have now is TPGs aren't detecting alteration. So why wouldn't that continue if the result of getting them past TPGs is that they're worth more?

Goudey77 · #17 05-21-2019, 10:06 PM

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What�s undetectable by TPG�s slide by as unaltered. That�s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG�s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of �tolerances� when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 05-21-2019, 10:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Based on how this conversation is going so far it puts us back on the question. What�s undetectable by TPG�s slide by as unaltered. That�s the reality we card collectors have to live with. Until TPG�s figure out a solution.

Watch the video and they speak on this subject of �tolerances� when it comes to things like cleaning or pressing.

Somehow CGC appears to have it figured out and is obviously more stringent on books than PSA is on cards.

Right. Any system at all only works if the TPGs can tell the difference.

Goudey77 · #19 05-21-2019, 10:11 PM

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG�s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

Peter_Spaeth · #20 05-21-2019, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I wish they would do that. But the reality is that they are performing suboptimally which means people take it into their own hands, particularly with so much accessible information, with all that entails.

Goudey77 · #21 05-21-2019, 10:16 PM

Watch the video if you can spare the time. It�ll make you appreciate the openness of CGC on this subject and what they are doing about it. It certainly makes it less taboo. To those who think the comic hobby is irrelevant to cards are turning a blind eye. It�s all relevant because it�s all driven by the almighty dollar.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #22 05-21-2019, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG�s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

I feel it's very NECESSARY bad publicity.

My problem in general with your scenario of evolution is that it's evolving only after people got caught gaming the system. In other words it's not a "natural" evolution of standards but rather backing and filling to account for deeds already accomplished. You can't do something and then when called out claim you were just trying to evolve the hobby. Forget the hubris for a minute. If you honestly thought that you were the one to lead the hobby to a new paradigm you'd announce it BEFORE you ever started profiting from it.

Fuddjcal · #23 05-22-2019, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

To rely on internet sources to flag altered cards is not good for our hobby. It causes drama, unnecessary bad publicity, conspiracy theories etc etc. It needs to be done at a collective industry level. My only solution is getting TPG’s to step up their game. Follow what CGC does.

and for guys like Brent Mastro to STOP what he is doing by cozying up to known scumbag losers, like his pal and good customer, Edward Scissorhands

Fuddjcal · #24 05-22-2019, 10:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Absolutely no incentive to try and get alterations �past� the TPG. As they sell for less.

The big question here is if TPG�s in the card industry are willing to change their business structure to do what CGC does and recognize conservation, restoration. I know that�s a huge change and likely not good for the bottom line. But as it stands there is incentive and a proven �loophole� of sorts because there is no consistent standard for recognizing alterations.

I know Brent touches on how we have not �matured� in this hobby. I kind of agree we aren�t there yet. Even comics are ahead of the �game�.

Yeah, Brent Mastro, would love to continue to mature his relationship Edward Scissorhands. He is full of S, I mean hot air. I have seen him blabber mouthing, but has not done 1 THING he said he would as of yet. He is an idiot, a picked scab, IMHO until he makes a move and it is made public.

bnorth · #25 05-21-2019, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Right so as I said there would still be a huge incentive to alter cards to get them past the TPGs just as there is today, what am I missing?

Nothing, absolutely nothing. Paid damage control maybe, I have no idea. Anybody else have a hobby that has nothing to do with baseball cards that we can use their standards to make criminal activity in our hobby seem OK?

Brent isn't trying to mature the hobby he is trying to cover his ass IMHO.

Peter_Spaeth · #26 05-21-2019, 10:06 PM

Let me understand this. Suppose I am a highly skilled card doctor making gobs of money getting many of my hatchet jobs past TPGs. Now, a market develops for restored cards (there sort of is one already, the AUTH, but never mind that). Restored cards sell for 50-75 percent less. I am going to stop being a card doctor and become a card restorer? Why?

Again, it's late, maybe I am missing it.

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