Conservation vs restoration defined by other genres of collectibles

steve B · #1 05-22-2019, 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

My ex brother-in-law was a vintage big movie memorabilia collector and he explained how it works with movie posters. If you restore (or conserve) a Vg vintage movie poster to NrmMt, it will be worth more than Vg but less than NrmMt. And it was the hobby requirement that any restoration be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing restoration or conservation would be considered fraud, because it affected the valued

In that area, taste and sentiment would vary between collectors, but restoration and conservation wasn't frowned upon, and often was seen as positive for the preservation of the delicate posters. However, the pricing and requirement for disclosure was as was stated in paragraph #1. In all areas of collecting, whether it is common and accepted (paintings, movie posters) or not (American Indian artifacts), conservation and restoration affects market value, and, thus, has to be disclosed.

Also, conservation (which could include restoration) was a serious, scientific treatment, including of the paper, to stabilize it and preserve it for posterity. It was not "spooning out wrinkles."

To repeat: SPOONING OUT WRINKLES AND REMOVING WAX STAINS IS NOT CONSERVATION. No one in the other hobbies, the art or artifacts world, defines conservation as PWCC does. And, even if they did, the 'conservation' would still have to be disclosed at sale. Not disclosing it would be considered fraud. It does not matter what word you call it, you're still altering ('doing work on' if you prefer) the item, and that has to be disclosed. If Brent insists on calling it 'conservation,' fine. But that does not change the fact that it has to be disclosed, and, because knowledge that the card has been 'conserved' would lower the market value, it is fraud.

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 05-22-2019, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

What modern stuff do you see having problems?

steve B · #3 05-22-2019, 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What modern stuff do you see having problems?

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 05-22-2019, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

Maybe one of the card doctors' great grandkids will be able to turn it back into a 10.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 05-22-2019, 10:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Most anything produced by Collectors Edge, more than half of my clear cards have yellowed already.
and I forget the set, but one of my modern sets that should have nice white edges has browned. The fronts and backs look fine, but the cardstock will eventually destroy itself. since it's modern shiny cards on stock that's coated front and back, I'm not sure even a professional deacidification would reach the center of the card.
Most Topps produced up to 1991 will eventually have problems. The cream/white backs may be ok, but I don't know if anyone has ever actually studied the cardstock for acidity. The gray/brown stuff is largely wood pulp, and will degrade eventually. so far things don't seem too bad, but if you take the very long view a 10 today will not be a 10 100 years from now.

Collectors Edge, now there's a company I forgot about already, now i remember a little from the early 90s.

steve B · #6 05-22-2019, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Collectors Edge, now there's a company I forgot about already, now i remember a little from the early 90s.

I didn't say it was rare modern stuff...�..

Peter_Spaeth · #7 05-22-2019, 10:20 AM

I remember them and Wild Card football from that timeframe.

steve B · #8 05-22-2019, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I remember them and Wild Card football from that timeframe.

I collected both pretty avidly.

Now that you mention it, I should check and see if the browning ones are the wild card.... darn, forget the name. The thick embossed foilish rookie set that finally ended them because it sort of wasn't licensed.

steve B · #9 05-22-2019, 09:49 AM

Here is how another hobby handles an alteration.

This was I think 3 months getting a certificate, at $35. I didn't know the cancel was fake, but the PF did. I'm still very happy with it, as it's a new discovery. (Not my discovery, but I believe this was the first copy certified) I don't know if they needed it, but I sent a copy of the article identifying this as a foreign entry along with it.

The fake cancel may have been added for a couple reasons. The stamp may have had damaged gum, or been stuck down so the gum was removed. A nice used copy probably sells faster than an unused copy that's got a problem like no gum. (decent price reduction). It's also possible that there's a very light cancel in a common color, and the blue fake was added to increase the value( decent addition to catalog value for a blue cancel)

Fuddjcal · #10 05-22-2019, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

This is pretty much exactly how it should be.

Lets face a few facts, without some actual conservation, some of our cards won't last another hundred years. Many of the 1920's strip cards are shaky already. Even some really modern stuff is already having problems.

I believe they are already being "conserved" just by putting them in those dumb plastic holders, without the haircuts.

steve B · #11 05-22-2019, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

I believe they are already being "conserved" just by putting them in those dumb plastic holders, without the haircuts.

As the cardstock decays, it gives off acid, which, inside a holder stays in the cadstock and promotes more decay/acid.

I've believed for years that the holders used for grading will actually damage some cards over a lengthy period of time. I asked SGC how sealed theirs were, and the answer was that they pretty much aren't. Will there be enough air transfer to vent the acidic air? Maybe. I've wanted to slab a card along with a strip of litmus paper, but can't imagine any of the companies allowing that.

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