Crossover grading

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I guess the question you have to ask is, why are people willing to pay those price differentials for an arbitrary half grade difference? In some cases I think the answer is almost circular -- because the market says they're worth more. Sort of like in the old days, cards were worth what Beckett said they were worth, despite its claim that it was merely reflecting prices not determining them. Purely from a collecting standpoint, I'm not sure.

I agree to some extent (regarding the guide 'setting' prices as much as, or more so than, 'reflecting' prices). But if you consider it more in terms of 'cycle time', the Beckett may well have reflected changes, but over a longer cycle than today's shorter cycle 'guides' like a VCP. At some point those cards would not 'move' at Beckett 'guide' prices and in theory the Beckett prices would be adjusted. Personally, I always marveled (suspiciously so) at how many monthly price changes had an up indicator and so few had a down one.

Now consider even further the shorter cycle times. The shorter the cycle, the more the 'card' becomes a 'commodity', which may be even worse than considering it an 'asset'.

And as an aside, does PWCC attempt to see the future or create the future?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by tschock

I agree to some extent (regarding the guide 'setting' prices as much as, or more so than, 'reflecting' prices). But if you consider it more in terms of 'cycle time', the Beckett may well have reflected changes, but over a longer cycle than today's shorter cycle 'guides' like a VCP. At some point those cards would not 'move' at Beckett 'guide' prices and in theory the Beckett prices would be adjusted. Personally, I always marveled (suspiciously so) at how many monthly price changes had an up indicator and so few had a down one.

Now consider even further the shorter cycle times. The shorter the cycle, the more the 'card' becomes a 'commodity', which may be even worse than considering it an 'asset'.

And as an aside, does PWCC attempt to see the future or create the future?

With the thousands of cards listed, IMO Beckett could not possibly have had sufficient data in those pre-internet days to assess what cards were selling for at hundreds of venues if not more across the nation. The reality was, most dealers just quoted the Beckett price except maybe for super hot current players, and typically if you bought enough or were a regular customer you could get a discount from that.

[tschock]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the thousands of cards listed, IMO Beckett could not possibly have had sufficient data in those pre-internet days to assess what cards were selling for at hundreds of venues if not more across the nation. The reality was, most dealers just quoted the Beckett price except maybe for super hot current players, and typically if you bought enough or were a regular customer you could get a discount from that.

Agreed. And most buyers used it to determine what to pay. A self-fulfilling cycle. Not a guide as much as a sales catalog, with the salesmen being the individual dealers.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

With the thousands of cards listed, IMO Beckett could not possibly have had sufficient data in those pre-internet days to assess what cards were selling for at hundreds of venues if not more across the nation. The reality was, most dealers just quoted the Beckett price except maybe for super hot current players, and typically if you bought enough or were a regular customer you could get a discount from that.

I'd have to look as some old Becketts, but I think they used to list the dealers they got pricing from. Pretty much all the biggest from whatever year it was, plus supposedly a few others who would report sales. (who ever had that much time? )

One show I was at the talk among some dealers when they didn't think anyone was listening was about how they had expected the initial prices in Beckett to be higher, and held off on selling the cards until the prices came out.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

I'd have to look as some old Becketts, but I think they used to list the dealers they got pricing from. Pretty much all the biggest from whatever year it was, plus supposedly a few others who would report sales. (who ever had that much time? )

One show I was at the talk among some dealers when they didn't think anyone was listening was about how they had expected the initial prices in Beckett to be higher, and held off on selling the cards until the prices came out.

I definitely ran into that with new issues. I mean you could always get the just-released Shaq rookie or whatever it was that year if you threw a crazy number at someone, but quite often they would tell you they were waiting to see what "the Beckett" said. The same guys who were always telling you that some wax product or other was "drying up." I imagine shows everywhere in the early to mid 90s were pretty much the same, but there were some real prizes among the Boston area show guys.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I definitely ran into that with new issues. I mean you could always get the just-released Shaq rookie or whatever it was that year if you threw a crazy number at someone, but quite often they would tell you they were waiting to see what "the Beckett" said. The same guys who were always telling you that some wax product or other was "drying up." I imagine shows everywhere in the early to mid 90s were pretty much the same, but there were some real prizes among the Boston area show guys.

In the mid 80's when I lived in CT I went to a local flea market a lot. One guy always had new stuff, small time dealer, and kinda pushy. My stock answer for him on stuff I didn't want was "nah, I already have some". One day were talking in general, and I mentioned I might get up early someday soon to sell some of my extra stuff. He motioned me around to the back of the van, handed me a couple boxes of new product (Probably something interesting but junk like the mini cards) and said "those are for you, don't sell here next weekend" I tried to pass, but he got a bit insistent...

One of the few "bad" things broke college me did was occasionally mention to him that I was going to set up next week. Not often, maybe 5 times over the summer.

[steve B]

This came across the news today. I thought it was an interesting parallell to the question of one grading company not crossing other companies stuff as policy.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/sports/nfl...lt0?li=BBnb7Kz

Short story, Romo sets up fantasy FB event, NFL supposedly tells players they'll be in trouble for attending as it's gambling.

Next year, he gets EA sports as a sponsor, supposedly NFL pressures EA to withdraw.

[barrysloate]

David- that grading isn't a perfect science is of course true. But what concerns me is the ridiculous rise in price for an extra half grade or full grade when the grade we are buying is so subjective. How can you even know you are getting what you pay for? Part of this is that cards sent in for review can only get a higher grade, but never a lower one. That make no sense because if a card is misgraded, it can be either slightly overgraded or slightly undergraded. But resubmissions carry no risk because the grade will never be lowered.

We would never be having this discussion if an 8 was worth $80, a 9 was worth $90, and a 10 worth $100. Then nobody would bother resubmitting. But in the real world that $80 card might be $900 in a 9, and $10,000 as a 10. That's something that very few collectors understand. In the latter scenario, I want grading to be an exact science to justify the inflated price, and it can never be that way.