Alteration vs. Conservation Defined

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Mercy, again.
A few more of these and I'm joining David James in the conspiracy camp lol.


https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=1539

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am pretty confident there will be another major opus on the modern side soon. I really have no idea on the vintage side. I suspect there is lots more for these guys to look at as they haven't been at it that long and there's a ton of cards, but we'll see.

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

There’s more coming. The work being done on Blowout is really extraordinary but it’s being done by just a few people. I understand that more are getting involved though, including some former Net 54 members! I think Brent will have an interesting National if he decides to attend.

How could he not attend?

[iowadoc77]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How could he not attend?

I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by iowadoc77

I can not imagine him not attending. That being said, it certainly is a possibility. I think, as has been stated, that the average collector still likely does not know about all of this. And if they don’t know, then they don’t care, and we will see lines to consign at the PWCC series of tables.

Yeah I mean just look at some of the people here who seem, what's the word, unmoved (?) by all that's been revealed and continues to be revealed.

[Rhotchkiss]

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who has been harmed, what are the damages, and perhaps most importantly, how would you identify them? And who do you propose to sue?

Pretty sure we can get there.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jeff, I know you do criminal defense, but any chance of putting together a class action (or know anyone who could/would)? It seems to me that the odds of a formal criminal investigation is fairly low. But some retribution should occur here. Clearly countless people have been harmed civilly, and a torts lawyer could find many torts/causes of action here. With a lower burden of proof and a potentially more-damning result (hit them all in the wallet), it seems to me a that a class action/civil suit could be very effective, and could kick-start a criminal investigation too.

For me, its just getting to the point where I am convinced there is a very substantial chance that bad stuff happened here and people have been harmed, and there should be some investigation (and penalty) either by the law or courts. The courts -- through civil suit - seems the quickest and most effective means.

First, I’d disagree with you strongly on the chances of a criminal investigation. Strongly.

Next, Ive sued Mastro and Doug and they folded in a matter of days. With Brent, he’d be forced in litigation to turn over his emails, records, etc. and I can’t imagine he’s that crazy, although who knows. Peter does class actions and presuming we could slow down his posting output, and I’d happily help him on such a case. The more I think about it the more I’d be interested in such a case.

[Peter_Spaeth]

His emails, texts, etc. might be ... uh ... interesting.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by calvindog

First, I’d disagree with you strongly on the chances of a criminal investigation. Strongly.

Next, Ive sued Mastro and Doug and they folded in a matter of days. With Brent, he’d be forced in litigation to turn over his emails, records, etc. and I can’t imagine he’s that crazy, although who knows. Peter does class actions and presuming we could slow down his posting output, and I’d happily help him on such a case. The more I think about it the more I’d be interested in such a case.

I've been talking with some journalist friends trying to find someone who knows at least the basics of the hobby who would be interested in a helluva investigative opportunity. I would think such a piece (or series) might draw some law enforcement attention, especially if it's in a big enough publication.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by calvindog

First, I’d disagree with you strongly on the chances of a criminal investigation. Strongly.

Next, Ive sued Mastro and Doug and they folded in a matter of days. With Brent, he’d be forced in litigation to turn over his emails, records, etc. and I can’t imagine he’s that crazy, although who knows. Peter does class actions and presuming we could slow down his posting output, and I’d happily help him on such a case. The more I think about it the more I’d be interested in such a case.

The more I think about it, the more interested I'd be to see you take it on.

Just for fun.

[MULLINS5]

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.

AHs do it all the time for consignors. I don't have a problem with it if the cards are not doctored and the consignors are not card doctors. Isn't that the real problem?

[frankbmd]

Pristine Card Cleaners appears to operate out of Athens, GA according to the Facebook entries.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

I've read in multiple threads on more than one forum that Brent sent cards to PSA on behalf of Gary Moser. Is this true or is it conspiracy stuff? I'm hoping the latter. If true then that's the strongest piece of evidence that Brent/PWCC is complicit in the fraud. I remember reading about how Joe Orlando quit collecting when he took his position at PSA. That should be the same for Brent. It's harsh, but someone in that big of a position should not be a collector or subbing anything to any grading company.

I know someone who, when he took a job in the price guide division at Beckett, was told he not buy and sell while he was working for them.

An auction house sending in cards for consigners to get graded is fine. Some consigners aren't experts or even collectors (grandpa's collection), and the AH does what it best for them. I've had non collectors who have stumbled upon something valuable, and I've recommended they consign it to one of the good auction houses and let the AH handle it all for them. In these and other cases, there's nothing unethical or problematic with the AH getting the cards graded or autographs authenticated for them-- part of the servce.

An AH submitting cards for someone they know been banned by the grading company from submitting for altering cards is obviously an issue, and, at the very least, the AH takes partial responsibility for any altered cards that have been submitted. If the AH is submitting cards for someone who has been banned (and the AH knows has been banned) from submitting, I don't now why (beyond the obvious $$ considerations, which, of course, is a big beyond in this hobby) the grading company wouldn't also ban the AH from submitting.

[judsonhamlin]

There are a couple of questions that I don't think have been answered (and they may not be without subpoenas or warrants)-

-what percentage of submission by the 'doctors' are getting through? Given the profit margins, I would imagine there is an acceptable level of loss (cards rejected by PSA). The answer would, to me, be the distinction between buffoonery/incompetence and outright collusion.
-are these cards being reviewed by the same grader(s) and supervisors? Again, the difference between incompetence and collusion, either with or without the knowledge of corporate officials.
-how were these cards submitted? In person/mail? And what kind of follow-up communication took place about those submissions?

Just some thoughts

[Peter_Spaeth]

Mercy.
https://www.facebook.com/pristinecards/

I don't have an account but here is one of the comments reproduced on Blowout.

Pristine Card Cleaners
We get higher grades on cards all the time. The ONE thing we can not control is centering so 9 or 8.5 centered cards are tough. We have been able to get a gem on 9 centered cards because the surface, edges and corners have to be on point. The vintage cards are tougher because of the paper they used then and the overall age of the card. Can we improve them....yes but it is not taking a 1920 tobacco card from a 2 to a 6. The newer cards are usually littered with printing issues to the edges, surface and sometimes corners. These cards SHOULD be pristine but through the manufacturing process they are not. That's why you see photos of those because it is the largest portion of the speculator market and grades really impact the value of the cards.

[peterose4hof]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Do you think there will be a lot more to follow, or are we nearing the end of the bunch?

The guys on blowout just found a new run of certs connected to Moser. Leads me to believe many more are to come.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by peterose4hof

The guys on blowout just found a new run of certs connected to Moser. Leads me to believe many more are to come.

And more modern sold through PWCC. And the beat goes on. And the beat goes on.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295880

[jad22]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=65


Geez. That’s quite in jump in price for the Russell rookie.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by jad22

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=65


Geez. That’s quite in jump in price for the Russell rookie.

And this is why I believe PSA is part of the scam. Who is going to spend $7700 on a card, risk cracking it out and doctoring it knowing anything could go wrong? Who's going to risk screwing up a $7700 card, unless you knew for sure it would get a number grade?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

And this is why I believe PSA is part of the scam. Who is going to spend $7700 on a card, risk cracking it out and doctoring it knowing anything could go wrong? Who's going to risk screwing up a $7700 card, unless you knew for sure it would get a number grade?

Someone making hundreds of thousands would not view it as a huge risk.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

And this is why I believe PSA is part of the scam. Who is going to spend $7700 on a card, risk cracking it out and doctoring it knowing anything could go wrong? Who's going to risk screwing up a $7700 card, unless you knew for sure it would get a number grade?

They would have to be quite confident in their “skill of the craft” to do this.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And more modern sold through PWCC. And the beat goes on. And the beat goes on.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295880

Some of those look to be big enough trims that they should have never cleared even a basic min size check.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A musical interlude from the Andrea True Connection.

More more more
How do you like it
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More more more

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1295892

[vintagetoppsguy]

Card doctors are making more $ than regular doctors.

Dad: "Son, what do you want to be when you grow up?"
Son: "I want to be a doctor...a card doctor. "