Outed cards, now including a 130K gain on an Aaron rookie

calvindog · #1 06-01-2019, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

You are correct. PSA has to openly state they are WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT of detecting alterations including trimming, recoloring, rebuilding corners, and pressing out creases or they are lying. Or they have to reveal the scammers internal to their organization and prosecute them for fraud. They also need to openly state ALL OF THE SCAMMERS THAT ARE BANNED FROM SUBMITTING so the rest of the collecting community is aware and the information can be given to the other grading companies, auctionhouses, etc.

After that, they have to buy back all of these cards revealed to be altered, and remove them from their pop reports.

Then they need to actually develop the tactics, techniques, and procedures to detect alterations.

Otherwise, their business model crumbles. Maybe it does anyways. As a publicly traded company with millions of dollars of fraud uncovered in weeks by volunteer detectives, they are exposed both literally and financially.

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

Peter_Spaeth · #2 06-01-2019, 08:18 AM

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

calvindog · #3 06-01-2019, 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 06-01-2019, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

I think he was cut down to just a General.

Steve D · #5 06-02-2019, 12:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

LOL
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2416

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Jesus. The Generalissimo had some haircut.

We need to be careful in this, IMHO.

Here are scans of another 1952 Topps Look-N-See Chiang, with the same/similar markings as the two linked to above.

Additionally, on the card linked to from the Blowout Forum, the right edge is also different. The first one has a diamond-cut right edge, and the second one does not. That would mean that if they were the same card (and I am not convinced they are), the right edge was also trimmed.

Steve

Peter_Spaeth · #6 06-02-2019, 07:21 AM

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2442

perezfan · #7 06-02-2019, 01:49 PM

THAT one really demonstrates PSA's lack of skill (or something else fishy...)

Not that the hundreds of others we've seen don't demonstrate the same thing on an equal or lesser level. Where/when/how will this end?

Peter_Spaeth · #8 06-02-2019, 02:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

THAT one really demonstrates PSA's lack of skill (or something else fishy...)

Not that the hundreds of others we've seen don't demonstrate the same thing on an equal or lesser level. Where/when/how will this end?

I think it's genuinely a fluid situation right now and we don't know. The cynic in me says the people spending the big money keep right on glibly spending it, maybe a couple of players face some criminal and or civil liability, and the train gets back on track and rolls on. As my new signature says...

steve B · #9 06-02-2019, 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2442

Gunk removal to me is a really gray area. I've done it once where it worked out, and once where it didn't - T206 I bought because it looked great but had a LOT of greasy soot on the back. Which wasn't really coming off without going way beyond what seemed "right"

It does seem to say a lot that PSA "missed" paper loss on a 6

steve B · #10 06-02-2019, 05:49 PM

The description on the Morris is really minimal.

"One of over 15,000 cards, lots, and sets up for bid in our 6th Auction of 2016. Click on the link above to view the other PWCC auction lots."

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/items/1316003

It's a strange case, I believe they're the same card.
But the new scan shows some surface specks the old scan doesn't.
Maybe a difference between running the scanner with speck removal or not?
The other things I notice are the mark/damage mid right, and the upper left corner.
I can't tell from the scans exactly what's going on there.
It's possible the bit on the right is either paper loss, or nearly paper loss where there's a flap folded over.
The upper right corner looks like it had a tiny crease, or layering that folded over.

If they're folded over layering, folding them back in place would be a somewhat gray area. PSA has done it (see the PSA 8 71 Topps on the postwar side) If the folded over bits looked like leaving them alone would make them fall off, I would probably fold them back into place. (Risky, if they're that bad, folding them back in place can make them come off. )
If they're rebuilt paper loss and a rebuilt corner that's not good.

If it was mine, I'd print the earlier scan, write up what I think was done and just keep that together with the card.
Unless you can get a decent return and find another.

steve B · #11 06-02-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve D

We need to be careful in this, IMHO.

Here are scans of another 1952 Topps Look-N-See Chiang, with the same/similar markings as the two linked to above.

Additionally, on the card linked to from the Blowout Forum, the right edge is also different. The first one has a diamond-cut right edge, and the second one does not. That would mean that if they were the same card (and I am not convinced they are), the right edge was also trimmed.

Steve

Yeah, that one isn't as convincing as most of the others.
I'd need better scans, but I believe the registration is different. And the 7 seems to have marks on the right side above the globes that the 9 doesn't have. (could be recolored, but then why not do the ones at the top? )

swarmee · #12 06-01-2019, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

It's a new day; PSA's message board post about the scandal has not gone poof. I'm not going away. And although I'm one guy, I scream loudly on message boards. And people are listening.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 06-01-2019, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

PSA is circling the wagons and will fight to the death any notion that they are financially responsible for this debacle. They will pay some squeaky wheels back but will surely not make any public pronouncement that anyone who has one of these obviously trimmed cards will get their money back. That would require them to accept responsibility and that's not happening. When has PSA ever fell on its sword for their incompetence and negligence?

Now THIS smells like a class action opportunity, no?

AddieJoss · #14 06-01-2019, 09:16 AM

I called and spoke to PSA. They stated three will review any card suspected for being altered and review the card, plus any evidence if you have it as well. This is done free of charge. If deemed altered (I know that term is now ambiguous), they will buy it back. With that said, I would prefer to be at the beginning of this line, and not the end. So you can mail them to them if you would like to see how it goes. If anyone does, please share your experience.

Cory Weiser

swarmee · #15 06-01-2019, 09:23 AM

The Airing of Grievances: PSA Edition
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297252

swarmee · #16 06-01-2019, 09:37 AM

Definitely recommend you try to find proof first before sending back. They will look at the "evidence" of before and after photos.

calvindog · #17 06-01-2019, 09:43 AM

They still haven�t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don�t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They�re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven�t and won�t.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 06-01-2019, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

They still haven�t made a public announcement. They know there is a ton of bad Moser cards out there that they incorrectly graded yet don�t give a damn about getting those cards out of circulation. They�re just quietly dealing with individuals who are calling to complain instead. This should be no different than a dog food company recalling bad dog food that they sold. PSA should be issuing a national campaign to get these cards back and to stand behind their product. But they haven�t and won�t.

Anyone remember WIWAG? They were not exactly forthcoming then.

Time for SGC to step it up, as has been mentioned, but will they?

swarmee · #19 06-01-2019, 09:51 AM

They were hamstrung by the May 31 Set Registry Deadline that passed yesterday. I expect them to be more forthcoming now that they can put that registry year to bed. If they had decertified all the flips tied to Moser one day before the deadline, they would have irreparably harmed their customers and brand.
I completely understand them taking time to make a measured response, when that time was so critical to their Set Registry. Just the timing of these revelations came at the wrong time of the year.

Buythatcard · #20 06-01-2019, 09:39 AM

Suppose you own one of these cards. You won it at an AH or on eBay.
Now, the AH or eBay seller might have bought this card from another AH or seller. Maybe the card was consigned. The AH or eBay seller had no idea that it was altered or doctored in any way. They depended on the expertise of the grading company to confirm its authenticity.

Do you think that the AH or eBay seller is responsible for refunding the buyer? How about the grading company, are they responsible for refunding the buyer?
Or, is the buyer stuck with the card?

swarmee · #21 06-01-2019, 09:43 AM

irishdenny · #22 12-01-2019, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Now THIS smells like a class action opportunity, no?

We're just spit ballin here...
Let's Say Every PSA Cert Number was an actual person in this Class Action Law suit! And the List kept getting bigger and Bigger And BIGGER!

And then the PSA Bubble got Busted!
Well, it took like 7-10 years fir the GAI Slab to become obsolete, jus a quick thought!?

"How Long do ya think it'll take fir the PSA Slab to become extinct?"

perezfan · #23 12-01-2019, 10:12 PM

My over/under is 8 years. But wish that number was lower.

bnorth · #24 12-01-2019, 10:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

My over/under is 8 years. But wish that number was lower.

I will take the over.

This hobby is way too shady to let a few whiners on a couple forums bring down the cash cow. Anybody in for a group submission?

Peter_Spaeth · #25 12-01-2019, 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

I will take the over.

This hobby is way too shady to let a few whiners on a couple forums bring down the cash cow. Anybody in for a group submission?

Over as well. I cannot see the hobby returning to a raw card model, not with the millions upon millions invested already in registry sets and other slabbed cards. And there is no meaningful competition now or on the horizon. I think PSA weathers the storm.

Johnny630 · #26 12-01-2019, 10:41 PM

Over Agree with Peter for all the above reason I posted before.

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