New allegations on BO

steve B · #1 06-02-2019, 04:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chalupacollects

Coins are probably ok too as they are tougher to trim...

Trim yes, alter.... nope, plenty of altered coins out there. And some of the same arguments apply, like what level of cleaning is ok and what isn't.

jad22 · #2 06-02-2019, 05:17 PM

Wouldn't it be easier to figure out all this junk out if Ebay just put the bidder id back without scrambling/masking it?

swarmee · #3 06-02-2019, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jad22

Wouldn't it be easier to figure out all this junk out if Ebay just put the bidder id back without scrambling/masking it?

Yep, and every auction house and consignor listed the owner of cards in their auctions.

steve B · #4 06-02-2019, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Yep, and every auction house and consignor listed the owner of cards in their auctions.

Other than famous collections, I can't recall seeing the consignor listed for any auction, in any field.

swarmee · #5 06-02-2019, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Other than famous collections, I can't recall seeing the consignor listed for any auction, in any field.

Did any other field have the level of pervasive fraud just uncovered in a month by volunteers? The obscured consignees is ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS we're in this situation.

Misunderestimated · #6 06-02-2019, 06:26 PM

I was sort of thinking about the Salvador Mundi "Da Vinci" too.
There is a recent Podcast by Michael Lewis that dealt with this and seems apposite.... It talks about the incentives for corrupt authentication in what may have been the ultimate collectible of the past several years.
https://atrpodcast.com/episodes/the-...nardo-s1!7616f

Some other stray thoughts.

--Authentication (and grading) is market driven like everything else and PSA occupies a strong position in the market ... (Good for them but maybe too good for them?)... As I think it was Kenny Cole who wisely noted several posts above, collectors would be mad if they took longer and charged more .... On the other hand the pricing structure is supposed to mean that we can expect more scrutiny when the stakes are higher (based on the value of the submission although this is a bit murky sometimes).

Maybe when the stakes really are high we should recognize that PSA/SGC/BGS are worth what they can do for the price charged -- Maybe consumers should demand and be willing to pay more then. (They are still bound by their guarantees)
Maybe if the card is really important we should demand a "higher authority" i.e. a more expensive one or more than one.
==
The Graders
I've never been that adept at predicting grades -- others have a much better eye. Still, I have no idea how anyone could ever detect that wax was removed or some other things that are part of this debate ... From the grader's perspective how can they be at fault ? They are innocent dupes unless they take into consideration who the submitter is ... Of course if you are intent on deceiving the graders that's really easy to get around.
Submitters, Deceptive Sellers
Its another thing to knowingly submit it under false pretenses and then to sell it once the submitter gets it past the grading authority (knowing that the grading company was "deceived") -- the same holds true of accepting the consignment knowing the grading company was deceived.That furthers the deception.
==

CobbSpikedMe · #7 06-02-2019, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Misunderestimated

==
The Graders
I've never been that adept at predicting grades -- others have a much better eye. Still, I have no idea how anyone could ever detect that wax was removed or some other things that are part of this debate ... From the grader's perspective how can they be at fault ? They are innocent dupes unless they take into consideration who the submitter is ... Of course if you are intent on deceiving the graders that's really easy to get around.
==

They are more like incompetent dupes to be honest. They are Professional Authenticators that can't properly authenticate crap. I'm not saying they are in on it, I'm not saying they aren't, but it's clear they can't do their one job.

steve B · #8 06-02-2019, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Did any other field have the level of pervasive fraud just uncovered in a month by volunteers? The obscured consignees is ONE OF THE MAJOR REASONS we're in this situation.

I can't think of any thing with the combination of the number of items plus the amount of money.

Art /antiques of course has occasional frauds, which can run into the millions for one item. But usually not so many items. I'm not sure about the hobby lobby artifacts thing, but it's probably close.

I've heard there's a lot of altered/fake coins out of China lately, probably equal, but the scammers are international and smarter about covering their tracks.

There were a few stamp guys on Ebay doing similar stuff, hundreds of items. But their stuff was usually pretty inexpensive. I bought a bad stamp, but it was only about $20. (They ruined a pretty nice 60 cent stamp)
And of course, Fox, Sperati, and Fournier were very prolific.

Even some major collections are auctioned under clever names. Sometimes the collectors name comes out after, sometimes not. If the collector is well known, it can be a plus.

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