PWCC Statement on Recent Card Trimming Concerns

[Brent Huigens]

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

[CuriousGeorge]

Well that’s a start.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rhetorical question, but why have you been selling them for at least a decade?

Relatedly, I guess you lied two years ago when you told me and Leon that Gary had pretty much retired. According to what you told us, he only "graded" a card "once in a while." Ha.

[Bram99]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Have all Moser related cards been removed from the current ongoing auction?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Bram99

Have all Moser related cards been removed from the current ongoing auction?

Do you believe anything this man says at this point?

[CobbSpikedMe]

nope

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement.

I think this line alone makes it pretty clear how quickly this is all moving.

[Fuddjcal]

Ouch. You said you would do this 3 weeks ago but then the scam continues. Why is that? You have a long history of blowing smoke up peoples a***

While I appreciate what you are trying to do, I gave you a pass 3 weeks ago. Then you let it continue until your are pretty much forced to just today?

Personally, I hope you get sued by PSA.

I will reserve the right to change my opinion of you but as for now, you are neck deep in quicksand my handsome friend and the play stands as called on the field. Good Luck Brent Mastro.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I think this line alone makes it pretty clear how quickly this is all moving.

Sounds like they are getting ready to throw Moser under the bus and save their own asses.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities.

Sounds like an attorney has been hired.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Sounds like they are getting ready to throw Moser under the bus and save their own asses.

And PSA. I was sort of wondering who would be sacrificed to keep them going. My money was on some poor new hire grader - yet another reason why I almost never bet on anything. (Of course, it's not over yet... )

[111gecko]

Wondering how many people are thinking it might me a good idea to empty the “vault” about now...

[CuriousGeorge]

Where’s the guy who was laying 4:1?

[bounce]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Do you know Gary Moser? - "Yes"
Do you accept consignments from Gary Moser? - "Yes"

Are there any Moser consigned cards in the current auction?
Did you submit cards to any TPGs on behalf of Gary Moser?
Did you accept bids from Gary Moser?
If so, did you ever cross check items Gary Moser won against items he consigned?
Did you buy cards on your account, and then resell them in your own auctions?
If so, was that disclosed in the auctions?

This is a good start, I reserve the right to ask additional follow ups depending on the answers.

[iowadoc77]

Good start with those questions. Not sure we can handle the truth but I think we know what it is

[perezfan]

[QUOTE=Brent Huigens; We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light...[/QUOTE]

1. “Presently Working with PSA”...
That is hardly new news. You’ve been “working” with them for a long time.

2. “Ensure all affected cards are brought to light”...
What a joke! It’s a tad late for that. The virus has spread way beyond PWCC’s control or any means that law enforcement can employ to contain them all. They are in circulation now, and there are hundreds (if not thousands) of bogus cards in PSA slabs that will never be fully accounted for.

Unless PSA goes down with you, these cards will continue to be sold and traded at a premium, to unknowing innocent victims. You let the cat out of the bag, and it is never coming back in.

[BengoughingForAwhile]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

[pgconboy]

This entire situation looks incredibly dire.

[Rhotchkiss]

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

[swarmee]

Cancel the entire auction, and sell your vaults to cover the losses.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by steve B

And PSA. I was sort of wondering who would be sacrificed to keep them going. My money was on some poor new hire grader - yet another reason why I almost never bet on anything. (Of course, it's not over yet... )

I don't know. It feels, to me, that they are partnering up with PSA as they work with law enforcement together. They will claim ignorance to the whole thing and blame Moser for doing all the fraud on his own. Like you, I almost never bet on anything though.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

What about the PSA 6.5, T206 Jennings AB 460 that is in your current auction. That used to sit in a PSA 4 case and they have confirmed on blowout that it has been altered (the mark under his armpit) and based on another thread it appears it is a Moser card; at least it was submitted by moser to PSA after it was altered.

Let’s Start by removing the cards in your current auction that are known to be altered and/or ”Mosered”

Let’s make a note of whether that card is indeed removed. If that auction is terminated, then maybe that’s a tiny first step in the right direction.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

I don't know. It feels, to me, that they are partnering up with PSA as they work with law enforcement together.

I guess that's one theory...

They do not appear to have published their apology on the PSA website.

I haven't been able to find any posts from them in the Collectors Universe forum. That forum overall is much less active than here or Blowout, but I'm pretty sure they've posted there before. Maybe I'm just missing it, if someone can find it let me know and I'll revise this.

I don't see any PWCC banners anywhere on the PSA site. Pretty sure they used to be there.

I don't see any PWCC banners on the VCP site, or in the "Auction want list" section on the home page. Pretty sure they used to be there.

[CuriousGeorge]

Originally Posted by bounce

I don't see any PWCC banners on the VCP site, or in the "Auction want list" section on the home page. Pretty sure they used to be there.

I imagine eBay made them take down the banners this weekend. Apparently they couldn’t wait until July 4th weekend to do it.

[midwaylandscaping]

Originally Posted by curiousgeorge

i imagine ebay made them take down the banners this weekend. Apparently they couldn’t wait until july 4th weekend to do it.

:d:d:d

[commishbob]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

Too late

[Exhibitman]

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Like a kid who got caught with his hand in the cookie jar...

Of course you are sorry, you got caught. Own it...

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

[oldjudge]

It's funny reading this thread with the PWCC banner showing up at the top.

[AddieJoss]

Originally Posted by BengoughingForAwhile

How will you "ensure that all affected cards are brought to light"? Will you be releasing a list of ALL cards you have sold connected to Gary Moser, so that the present owners of these cards can determine if they have been altered?

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

[swarmee]

"WE'RE GONNA NEED A BIGGER LIST!" CaptainSpaulding on BO says that he has another 16 submissions tied to this scandal.

Brent, how do you like my new PSA slogan: "IN ON IT OR IMPOTENT?"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

That's so sweet of him after polluting the hobby with altered cards for a decade and a half or however long it's been.

Why not just let bygones be bygones and we'll all get along, eh?

[topcat61]

Originally Posted by Brent Huigens

We are obviously very aware of the issues surrounding the cards submitted to us by Gary Moser. First, we want to apologize to all those who have been affected by the purchasing of trimmed or altered cards. We are not disappearing or burying our heads in the sand about this. Next, we are presently working with both PSA and law enforcement to ensure that all affected cards are brought to light and this information makes its way to our customers. We understand that we are responsible for our part in this mess and will do all that we can to make it right in connection with Moser-submitted cards as well as other submitters who may have altered cards of which we auctioned. We understand how difficult it is to be patient through this process but we are working through this as quickly as we can at the direction of counsel and the appropriate authorities. Finally, in response to these recent findings, we are no longer selling any Moser-submitted cards.

We are very sorry for the trouble that has occurred and will work to regain your trust.

I have a few questions for Mr. Huigens:

1) Which law enforcement agency was contacted? Did PWCC contact this agency?
2) When was it contacted or a case opened? Who's the name of the individual on the case?
3) Is there any proof of this?

My main concern is that PWCC didn't look over these cards and have questions before auction? What auction house doesn't inspect the items to a) make sure they're not stolen and b) not damaged or altered prior? An investigator who has some knowledge of the Hobby and auction houses and grading companies are going to have some questions that might be very difficult for PWCC to answer.

This also opens up legitimate concerns about the practices of PSA.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by topcat61

My main concern is that PWCC didn't look over these cards and have questions before auction?

Brent states that he personally inspects EVERY CARD VALUED AT $250 OR OVER to consider them for his stickers.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Brent states that he personally inspects EVERY CARD VALUED AT $250 OR OVER to consider them for his stickers.

With due respect that's not the issue. He probably doesn't know enough about cards to spot Moser's artistry. The point is he knew very well what Moser does, and knowingly took his altered cards to sell. And maybe even submitted some for him. And maybe the partnership went even beyond that.

The flat out lie to me (and Leon) that Moser was essentially out of the business two or three years ago really infuriates me, in case you can't tell.

[bounce]

Originally Posted by AddieJoss

I was told by Brent, that list is coming in the near future.

Cory Weiser

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

[pgconboy]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

I'd bet my house that internet detectives will find cards missing from any list they provide unless its a giant .csv file of every card ever sold.

[swarmee]

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bounce

I'm honestly asking, are you being sarcastic?

With everything else that has happened to this point, why would anyone believe the completeness of any list PWCC releases?

Without proper validation, which would require PWCC data, PSA data (possibly other TPGs) and eBay data, there's no way to have any confidence.

None of this even addresses whether this is isolated to this single individual, or if there are other people or elements involved.

There is zero trust right now, another "statement" or list isn't going to change that. They have not been forthcoming in the past, no one should expect them be now.

Said differently, it's always "short".

David as you've likely seen, on the modern side there are similar threads on known trimmers and PWCC on BO.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Brent has been fencing cards for up to 10 different revealed scammers. I would like to see all of those on the list too (PSA,BGS). I would like those companies to COMPLETELY DECERTIFY ALL THOSE NUMBERS.

You don't get what you don't ask for.

You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

You might blow up a few collections. Or more than a few.

Collateral Damage; you think everyone will know at that point? All collectors will know.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Collateral Damage; you think everyone will know at that point? All collectors will know.

A lot of collectors are just in it for the money and ego though, at the high end of things. Not all of course.

[Peter_Spaeth]

PSA has a very tough needle to thread, on the one hand the people who hate altered cards and are livid are going to demand major change; on the other hand people with major bucks tied up in collections may resist that change if it means taking away some of their high grade cards.

[swarmee]

They can turn them in now or see their value plummet in 6 months.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

They can turn them in now or see their value plummet in 6 months.

I think ultimately for many of these folks when push comes to shove the flip is going to trump the card.

[Fballguy]

Probably the most poetic post I've seen here. Bravo.

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

[swarmee]

Wow those guys on the PSA board are clueless. They've read about 3 total posts and not the 20+ threads on this scam and are defending PWCC... but when the place is moderated the way it's moderated, no surprise.
"They feed me dirt and keep me in the dark!"

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Wow those guys on the PSA board are clueless. They've read about 3 total posts and not the 20+ threads on this scam and are defending PWCC... but when the place is moderated the way it's moderated, no surprise.
"They feed me dirt and keep me in the dark!"

Happens here all the time John. People intentionally don't inform themselves, then pontificate.

[joshuanip]

I may be in the minority, but I hope Brent / PSA rebounds from this and criminal charges will be pressed on the card docs. People will be angry if this is the result because of the smoking gun from culpability, but I hope the hobby burns through this hot topic we are facing. punitive consequences will be defined and the maturity of our hobby’s use of tech/social media (thanks to our “super sleuths”) will act as a deterrent and make us stronger from this.

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t disagree with the majority, but would be happy with realistic expectations.

[benjulmag]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I think ultimately for many of these folks when push comes to shove the flip is going to trump the card.

Should the day come that substance triumphs over form and to hold value vintage high-grade cards will have to pass muster under a new kind of grading service that makes use of what technology can (in a cost-effective manner) reveal with regard to alterations, the flip might not triumph. I get it that such a scenario might be wishful thinking. However, I can see a path how it can come about -- a new grading service comes into being employing such technology while accompanied by a pronounced and well-run marketing campaign which exposes the significant likelihood that high-grade vintage cards with old flips are altered. Or maybe even SGC could bring it about it they ever get their act together and are willing to spend the bucks and engage the right marketing experts, while at the same time investing in such technology. This is not the hobby of yesteryear where cards sold for tens or hundreds of dollars, and thousand dollar cards were anomalies. We are now routinely in 5, 6 and 7 figure category, and it is about time our evaluation methods caught up.

How many posts have there been that the net54 community is only a very small subset of the collecting community, and that what is common knowledge on this Board is not generally known outside it. Well, change that reality and then there might (finally) be the real change so many of us are clamoring for.