PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I'm actually amused by that. I sincerely hope it is generating some revenue for Leon, helping this website remain up and financially viable, so the misdeeds of PWCC can be freely discussed and communicated with all - site members as well as other folks just dropping in to see what's going on. I hope Leon leaves it up there.

In fact, I'd like to see PWCC buy some ad space over at blowout, too. That's another site that should be supported by advertisers.

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

[Bigdaddy]

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

Neither PSA nor PWCC will voluntarily do anything to hurt their bottom line or that looks like an admission of guilt.

The only way that happens is by direction from a court of law.

It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

It looks to me like PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet. PSA’s submission records, when combined with Pwcc’s records and eBay records would probably be sufficient to cause Brent a lot of problems. If he doesn’t play ball then he is toast.

PSA’s statement looks like it was carefully designed to make Brent clean up the mess for any card that came through their operation that can be demonstrated to be “conserved”. For the rest that cannot be proven the review guarantee may be used, but I’d bet that very few of any such reviews will result in cards being deemed “conserved”.

The same thing happened a few years ago with the “late model” vintage cellos that made it into slabs. Only the ones that could be proven to be illegitimate were dinged. The rest are still circulating the hobby and unless you have the submission flip number ranges you would never know they were phonies.

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The other issue as I see it is that without some proactive identification of WHICH cards are suspect, most collectors will have no idea. Sure a small percentage will be outed on message boards but what about all the rest?

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

Based on what has happened in the past with similar situations, e.g. the bogus cellos that were slabbed a few years back, I think it likely that THIS is exactly what their strategy is.

For any non-outed item that might get submitted for a guarantee review I think they are well aware that as long as they do legitimate reviews and act on a card-by-card basis if they find problems then they will not risk becoming party to perpetuating a fraud.

What they are probably counting on is that most people with non-outed items will probably not realize it or will not go to the trouble of requesting guarantee reviews.

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am also guessing anyone without clear before and after evidence is facing an uphill battle on a review.

Not sure that PSA has anything to gain by creating such a hurdle. They have a better option available. I think they could just give guarantee reviews the lowest priority such that they take a long time. With normal services already running 3 months and longer it would discourage such submissions.

I think their focus is to protect themselves in such a way that also maximizes the value of the items they have authenticated that are already out in the market. They know that as long as the vast majority of owners of their authenticated items don’t get hurt then they will be ok.

I doubt you will ever see any of PSA’s submission records voluntarily provided to produce a list of potentially affected items. You won’t see them acknowledge any shortfalling on their part either. They are playing this one just like the previous ones.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark17

PWCC is paying this site to expose their own wrongdoings. What is wrong with letting them do so?

Nobody is going to come here, see what's going on, and then say, "Oh, never mind all those discussions about altered cards, I think I'll do business with PWCC because they have that cute ad...

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

Wait, what? There are principles involved? Who? Where? What are they?

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

For me it's more the principle of the thing,

My position is equally principled. You see my point and I see yours, and we will have to agree to disagree.

[Peter_Spaeth]

As an aside, Gary changed his ebay ID and was instantly outed.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=553

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Exactly. I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

I think that by allowing an entity to purchase and maintain a banner ad the board is implicitly endorsing their business practices.

+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

[Leon]

For the moment it is staying up. This board, nor I, endorse fraud. No one is forcing anyone to post or be here. Last I checked you can leave if you don't like it. This is a very fluid situation and their banner might come down, might not. I will make that decision when the time is right. Today, tomorrow or never.

I am bothered by a lot of things, like you not having your name next to your posts when you know darn well know it should be. Just like Jay Miller (Old Judge) who commented above, his name needs to be out here too. I have had discussions about these same violations with both of you more than once. Thanks

Originally Posted by T206Collector

+1

It definitely bothers me that our threads drive traffic to the PWCC website, and they have for some time.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Interesting take on it, personally I find it troublesome that the site continues to affiliate with such a person. Ii believe other sites have taken down his ads. I guess I don't have your appreciation for irony, although I get it.

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

I agree that Leon can do what ever he wants on his site, not that I have a say as it is Leon's site.

[Leon]

By your posts everyone and their brother can tell what kind of person you are. You do a great job in that respect. With respect to Mastro, I dare you to ever find one instance when I said he was innocent (without saying until proven guilty or something to that effect). That is a fallacy carried forward by El Chapo's lawyer. BTW, I also wrote a letter to the judge on the matter and it was not flattering to Mastro.

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

Me too.... but it's Leon's site and Leon is being Leon. He stood up for Mastro until he went to jail as well. He is a good friend until the end. That's admirable despite ALL the evidence. He can have Jack the Ripper's ad's up for all I care. I don't even see it.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Leon

By your posts everyone and their brother can tell what kind of person you are. You do a great job in that respect. With respect to Mastro, I dare you to ever find one instance when I said he was innocent (without saying until proven guilty or something to that effect). That is a fallacy carried forward by El Chapo's lawyer. BTW, I also wrote a letter to the judge on the matter and it was not flattering to Mastro.

LOL, maybe a bit too passionate but otherwise just hate scammers in all areas of my life. The list is growing but not limited to cards. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I must have somewhat misremembered. All the best!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

LOL, maybe a bit too passionate but otherwise just hate scammers in all areas of my life. The list is growing but not limited to cards. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I must have somewhat misremembered. All the best!

From your diplomatic posts I never would have guessed how you felt.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

From your diplomatic posts I never would have guessed how you felt.

I always try and straddle the issue...

[PowderedH2O]

Busiest person at PSA right now? The guy going in and lowering all of the SMR values so if they have to pay out it won't cost much.

"Oh, PSA 7 1960 Yaz rookie? I think the SMR reflects that to be $15. We honor our guarantee. Just send it in and we will send you the $15."

[Golfcollector]

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

[brad31]

I wonder if PSA has asked to contact the seller because PWCC has already agreed to refund purchases in exchange for not being banned from future submissions and not falling out of PSA’s good graces (i.e PSA promoting their record sales price on card X).

[70ToppsFanatic]

Originally Posted by brad31

I wonder if PSA has asked to contact the seller because PWCC has already agreed to refund purchases in exchange for not being banned from future submissions and not falling out of PSA’s good graces (i.e PSA promoting their record sales price on card X).

More like in hopes that PSA will not seek to go after them criminally.

PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Golfcollector

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

Stay tuned, there will be press coverage soon as I understand it.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Golfcollector

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

[Stampsfan]

I've not posted much at all on this, but have certainly been active in reading as much as I can. Maybe that's because I have a job, and a second small business on the side (not card related).

What bothers me about going back to the seller is what happens if that seller bought the card from another seller earlier. Now is that seller supposed to go back to the last seller? And then so on? Not all sellers are the original graders.

Back to the car comparison, if you buy a used (and relatively new) car from someone, and that car has a recall, do you go back to the guy you bought it from? Of course not.

The whole premise of PSA's business model is to remove the doubt around the product they viewed.

For me right now, my buying habits have in fact simply stopped. Have been that way for about three weeks now. This makes me sick, and I'm not sure how much I want to continue at the moment. While I'm a small fish, this hurts all dealers, and I will guess am not alone at eliminating my purchases.

Further, this fall I have planned and booked a trip to New York, primarily around finally bringing a large amount of my collection into the PSA offices in NJ, or at the New York Comic Con. My wife and I are spending ten days in the city, but the destination for this vacation was predicated around getting some of my higher end stuff graded. While it may not be much to some collectors here, it is a lot for me. Included in the batch is a complete set of V145-1 hockey with a nice Morenz, Clancy, and Joliat RC's and a host of HOF'ers, some 52 Topps including Matthews and Mays, and dozens and dozens of other cards in the $100-$1000 range. It would cost me, I don't know, a couple of thousand to grade them, if not more? In any case, it is now off the radar. Not giving these guys four figures of cash for an "opinion" that cannot be backed up. I will, however, have an extra day or so in New York, and some extra cash.