PSA Response from President Steve Sloan

Peter_Spaeth · #1 06-05-2019, 11:36 AM

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

Fuddjcal · #2 06-05-2019, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

so true. there are probably 100,000 cards or more, IMHO still a good ratio for PSA. But isn't this what we pay them for? The grade is secondary. I just want to know they are not altered and they can't tell either or they are scamming with guys like Brent Mastro, which is a distinct possibility.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 06-05-2019, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

so true. there are probably 100,000 cards or more, IMHO still a good ratio for PSA. But isn't this what we pay them for? The grade is secondary. I just want to know they are not altered and they can't tell either or they are scamming with guys like Brent Mastro, which is a distinct possibility.

Professional Sports AUTHENTICATOR. Indeed.

CuriousGeorge · #4 06-05-2019, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it�s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 06-05-2019, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it’s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

As I see it, if PSA was confident this was a limited problem, they should have no objection to releasing their submission records.

Peter_Spaeth · #6 06-05-2019, 11:51 AM

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

Fuddjcal · #7 06-05-2019, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

I think you can tell from my posts how I feel about it after spending 75K the past year.

I don't care what happens to the value as 3/4 of them are PSA. The truth will always trump everything for me personally. I won't buy another card until BM (no, not Bowl Movement), Brent Mastro goes to jail and PSA sues him.

70ToppsFanatic · #8 06-05-2019, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

And that is EXACTLY why PSA is taking the position they are taking. To minimize the value hit on what is in circulation now so that the damage to collectors and to their brand is minimized.

Once all of the outed cards are taken care of the rest is conjecture as far as the majority of the hobby is concerned. Anything that remains in a PSA slab is assumed to be good until proven otherwise. By keeping the submission records private PSA minimizes the chance that someone with a non-outed slab that may be tainted actually submits it for a guarantee review. It�s worked for them this way before. And as I said earlier, as long as they are being legitimate when they do a guarantee review and not just rubber stamping it as good to avoid honoring the guarantee they will be in the clear legally.

Realistically there are always going to be some slabbed cards that are illegitimate from all TPGs. You will never be able to root them all out. Without the submission, sales records and photos I doubt many of the non-outed ones will ever be discovered. Providing that information to the public is not in their interests. One could also argue that it would also be contrary to the interests of those with a substantial amount of money already tied up in slabbed cards. Bottom line is don�t hold your breath waiting to get that info officially.

The real questions are

A) what can be done to minimize the ability of additional �re-works� from getting into slabs going forward?

B) will those who are caught trying to cheat be sufficiently punished so that others are deterred from trying to do the same?

perezfan · #9 06-05-2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 70ToppsFanatic

And that is EXACTLY why PSA is taking the position they are taking. To minimize the value hit on what is in circulation now so that the damage to collectors and to their brand is minimized.

Once all of the outed cards are taken care of the rest is conjecture as far as the majority of the hobby is concerned. Anything that remains in a PSA slab is assumed to be good until proven otherwise. By keeping the submission records private PSA minimizes the chance that someone with a non-outed slab that may be tainted actually submits it for a guarantee review. It�s worked for them this way before. And as I said earlier, as long as they are being legitimate when they do a guarantee review and not just rubber stamping it as good to avoid honoring the guarantee they will be in the clear legally.

Realistically there are always going to be some slabbed cards that are illegitimate from all TPGs. You will never be able to root them all out. Without the submission, sales records and photos I doubt many of the non-outed ones will ever be discovered. Providing that information to the public is not in their interests. One could also argue that it would also be contrary to the interests of those with a substantial amount of money already tied up in slabbed cards. Bottom line is don�t hold your breath waiting to get that info officially.

The real questions are

A) what can be done to minimize the ability of additional �re-works� from getting into slabs going forward?

B) will those who are caught trying to cheat be sufficiently punished so that others are deterred from trying to do the same?

Are you employed by PSA?

70ToppsFanatic · #10 06-05-2019, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Are you employed by PSA?

No. My statements are personal opinions and observations based on consulting experiences I�ve had in the area of corporate crisis management. I was also one of the people who discovered and did a lot of the message board sleuthing on the hommade cellos issue a few years ago and lived through how PSA handled that one.

vintagetoppsguy · #11 06-05-2019, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Are you employed by PSA?

lol, you beat me to it. I was going to ask the same thing.

CuriousGeorge · #12 06-05-2019, 12:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I see it, if PSA was confident this was a limited problem, they should have no objection to releasing their submission records.

But we know they are going to resist and hope this all goes away quietly with them only refunding a few squeaky wheels. This time I believe it is going to be different though. Assuming what we are hearing from BO is true, there has been a blatant disregard by PSA in many of the procedures we rely upon when paying money to them to authenticate cards. And they need to be held accountable and honor their guarantee whether it was negligence on their part, getting duped by some fraudsters or whatever. Their guarantee is pretty clear to me as well as the lawyers I have spoken to. In no way does it say go back to whomever you purchased it from for recourse. And it doesn�t say if someone is intentionally deceiving them then they won�t honor it. I suspect regardless of where this heads, the guarantee will soon be reworded.

Peter_Spaeth · #13 06-05-2019, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

But we know they are going to resist and hope this all goes away quietly with them only refunding a few squeaky wheels. This time I believe it is going to be different though. Assuming what we are hearing from BO is true, there has been a blatant disregard by PSA in many of the procedures we rely upon when paying money to them to authenticate cards. And they need to be held accountable and honor their guarantee whether it was negligence on their part, getting duped by some fraudsters or whatever. Their guarantee is pretty clear to me as well as the lawyers I have spoken to. In no way does it say go back to whomever you purchased it from for recourse. And it doesn�t say if someone is intentionally deceiving them then they won�t honor it. I suspect regardless of where this heads, the guarantee will soon be reworded.

If someone deceived THEM, they would have a claim over under the submission agreement, like an insurer would against the party at fault, but in no way does it affect the guarantee as I read it.

Goudey77 · #14 06-05-2019, 12:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it�s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

If anyone truly believes PSA will guarantee all these cards you are being grossly misled. I have several contacts with first hand experience both good and bad. Some with the exact same scenarios being played out here and the results are not "guaranteed". I am afraid many will be told to go pound sand. Good thing PSA sits near Newport Beach.

CuriousGeorge · #15 06-05-2019, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

If anyone truly believes PSA will guarantee all these cards you are being grossly misled. I have several contacts with first hand experience both good and bad. Some with the exact same scenarios being played out here and the results are not "guaranteed". I am afraid many will be told to go pound sand. Good thing PSA sits near Newport Beach.

And Martin that�s why we have high priced lawyers in this country.

Peter_Spaeth · #16 06-05-2019, 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

And Martin that�s why we have high priced lawyers in this country.

And here and there even a few good ones.

SMPEP · #17 06-05-2019, 12:44 PM

I see the court room now ...

Card Collector: PSA - Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!

Judge: You don't have to answer that question!

PSA: I'll answer the question. You want answers?

Card Collector: I think I'm entitled to them.

PSA: You want answers?!

Card Collector: I want the truth!

PSA: You can't handle the truth!

Son, we live in a world that has baseball cards, and those cards have to be graded by men with plastic cases. Who's gonna do it? You, SGC? You, BGS? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for card collectors, and you curse PSA. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that card investor's financial loses, while substantial, probably were lessened; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves money.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me grading that baseball card -- you need me grading that baseball card.

We use words like "alteration," "conservation," and "authenticity." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent grading baseball cards. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading services that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a loupe and grade your own cards. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!

Card Collector: Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!

PSA: I did the job--

Card Collector: -- Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!

PSA: YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!!!

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