Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

Both points are relevant. The email you posted proves Brent knew what Moser did for a living. Assuming the email was from him. It doesn't even prove that Moser was submitting under his own name. Not to mention that anyone at pwcc knew of specific cards being altered or that they were directly involved in the alterations and grading as others have alleged.

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Believe what you want out on your limb, I don't care any more.

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

I agree with you there, it will definitely be interesting and there are lots of aspects to it. And there is no question there are many culpable parties in this mess, but in my opinion that doesn't excuse a specific culpable party.

[Chris-Counts]

I never bought from these guys before because they're winning bids were so high, and there was a lot of talk about shilling. But now, with all the negative publicity certain to scare off at least some of their customers, I'm looking at their auctions and trying to find some low grade or undergraded bargains.

[pokerplyr80]

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

Many of these cards that were outed simply had something removed from the card. If the card doctors are skilled enough to remove a stain with no trace, what is there to detect? These cards shouldn't be in the conversation at all. Unless you have a problem with those doing the altering.

Cards that were trimmed, recolored, or rebuilt (corners) are the issue. How was this not detected? Especially on modern cards that should all measure 2.5 by 3.5. These are the cases were it seems clear fraud was committed. And someone at the grading company has either been paid off or they're just incompetent. These cards shouldn't just slip through the cracks. But again, once they're graded how is the auction house supposed to know? They don't spend hours looking through every similar card sold previously. They don't have the benefit of before and after scans.

[Peter_Spaeth]

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?

I agree there are lots of places that need focus, absolutely, but that doesn't minimize the role of a major ebay seller knowingly enabling a card doctor, in my always humble opinion. And no he is not the only one by any stretch, but he's put himself in the crosshairs by all the good for the hobby stuff and complete hypocrisy, and the paper trail, so he will reap what he sowed, or should anyhow.

You want evidence? He was disproportionately stickering Moser cards and recommending that people like the 52 Bowman Musial guy buy them. To the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars or more.

By the way I suspect we have not heard the last of all the modern trimmed stuff sold through PWCC either.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I didn't sell the drugs to that guy, someone else would have. So what?.

In that situation, much like this one, I would be concerned with the guys producing, growing, transporting, etc. Escobar, El Chapo, than i would be the guys selling 20 bags on the street. But that's different because no one could unknowingly sell an 8 ball. Everyone involved knows they're breaking the law.

But should some of these drugs even be illegal? That's an issue for another discussion.

I'd also be much more concerned with someone becoming a billionaire by convincing doctors across the country to get people hooked on oxy than a doctor who wrote a few too many scripts.

Go to the source if you want to fix the problem.

[Peter_Spaeth]

To me there are three issues here of equal importance. The card doctors. The sellers enabling the card doctors. And the TPGs (hopefully due to incompetence not fraud) slabbing doctored cards. I think all three need to be addressed and I'll take intervention at any and all levels.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I just don't think the auction house is where the focus should be. It's almost irrelevant to the situation in my opinion. The cards were altered to one degree or another and certified by the most trusted grading companies in the world. Any auction house would have accepted them.

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

[Copa7]

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Copa7

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

This. I voted that I would never buy/consign from them again. I'm good with that. I am stunned by the level/number of people who are OK with being lied to and defrauded, but I get that stuff trumps all and for some people, the number on that flip is all that matters.

That "proof" argument? Pleeeeease. Give me a break. The very fact that you would even make that argument says so much. I agree that I hope that everyone who feels that way identifies themselves so I don't ever make the mistake of dealing with you.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by Copa7

I believe each to his/her own.

But for the record, I prefer to know those that are OK with buying from PWCC. At least this way, I know not to purchase from those when they try to liquidate their tainted collection.

Good point. Why would you buy from someone who says they got their cards from PWCC.

That the provenance doesn't bother a buyer "ain't worth a hill of beans" when he turns to try to sell to collectors who do care about that provenance. And many collectors will consider the provenance a reflection on the seller's general ethics and care about authenticity. Irrelevant to the authenticity, "I got my autographs from Coach's Corner" isn't a good selling point or a good look for a seller.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

So even with all the evidence proving that PWCC sold hundreds of altered cards for (so far) close to a million dollars, you still don't think they should be part of the conversation. We aren't talking about an AH not knowingly taking a few altered graded cards and selling them. We are seeing proof of this activity happening repeatedly hundreds of times by the same two guys. You don't think they both know what's going on?

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Again, Brent has admitted knowing he was selling altered cards for Gary. This is not in controversy. I think the case against each other seller would have to depend on the facts. I strongly suspect many of them knew exactly what they were doing, and in at least one other case of an AH I have had that conversation, but I don't have the same level of evidence nor has the same overwhelming circumstantial evidence yet been uncovered.

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

Yes.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

What if someone starts digging into heritage, rea, goldin, etc and finds before and after scans for a few hundred cards? Should we stop buying from all of them? Should we automatically assume the AH is at fault?

YES!!!!!!, You are very dopey, mcdope dope

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

You may be right, and you may not. I'm just not convinced. I don't think I'm out on a limb as far as you think I am. And I still don't think this will bring down PWCC or PSA. Unless it leads to someone new entering either market and gaining the trust of the hobby.

I could see someone coming out with a better grading method capable of detecting the alterations PSA and bgs have apparently been missing. Maybe then an auction house will be started promising only to sell cards that can be guaranteed unaltered. If enough people buy into it things could change. Perhaps a second grading scale will be developed that takes a card's current state and level of alteration or restoration into consideration.

But however it plays out it will be interesting to see.

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

[pokerplyr80]

Originally Posted by CobbSpikedMe

Jesse, purely out of curiosity, what would you be looking for as proof that PWCC knowingly sold doctored cards other than what has come out so far. Are you waiting for video evidence of Brent physically taking cards from Moser with audio of them discussing the alterations? I'm seriously just curious what you need to read/see to have even a slight distaste for PWCC or PSA at this point. Not trying to argue at all.

If there was truly something that crossed the legal line in this Moser / PWCC relationship and they were in it together I think there would be some proof short of video evidence. Payments, emails back and forth. If Brent was buying cards, sending them to Moser to doctor, then sending them into PSA directly to be graded, and finally selling them on his own site there would be some kind of evidence left behind. Especially if it's been going on for a decade or more. Something coming out along these lines would convince me.

My guess is that at best PWCC looked the other way when taking these consignments and didn't ask which cards were altered. And I also assume this was not unique to PWCC, but was going on everywhere to one degree or another. I realize that if I'm proven wrong I'll never hear the end of it. And that could happen. I just don't see it at this point.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

If there was truly something that crossed the legal line in this Moser / PWCC relationship and they were in it together I think there would be some proof short of video evidence. Payments, emails back and forth. If Brent was buying cards, sending them to Moser to doctor, then sending them into PSA directly to be graded, and finally selling them on his own site there would be some kind of evidence left behind. Especially if it's been going on for a decade or more. Something coming out along these lines would convince me.

My guess is that at best PWCC looked the other way when taking these consignments and didn't ask which cards were altered. And I also assume this was not unique to PWCC, but was going on everywhere to one degree or another. I realize that if I'm proven wrong I'll never hear the end of it. And that could happen. I just don't see it at this point.

Looking the other way knowing damn well who you're dealing with, and then recommending people buy the cards as investments, would be more than enough for me, and I assume for most people.

Would you feel the same way if he was taking cards from someone he knew to be the best counterfeiter in the hobby? Oh, but he didn't know that specific card was counterfeit, they didn't discuss it. So what?