Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't agree with Dave obviously on some of this but the attacks on him are unfair. He's a good man in my opinion. His point of view is that fraud is pervasive so if you want to keep collecting at all, it isn't rational just to selectively cut off the fraudster of the day, you have to be careful everywhere. I get that.

[sportscardtheory]

By telling us he's laughing at us for having principles? Great guy.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by sportscardtheory

By telling us he's laughing at us for having principles? Great guy.

I do find it funny how people respond to moments of crisis.

I laughed at the idiots who burned Nike apparel and the idiots who threw away expensive razor blades too.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree with Dave obviously on some of this but the attacks on him are unfair. He's a good man in my opinion. His point of view is that fraud is pervasive so if you want to keep collecting at all, it isn't rational just to selectively cut off the fraudster of the day, you have to be careful everywhere. I get that.

Thanks Peter.

This is exactly what I am getting at.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't agree with Dave obviously on some of this but the attacks on him are unfair. He's a good man in my opinion. His point of view is that fraud is pervasive so if you want to keep collecting at all, it isn't rational just to selectively cut off the fraudster of the day, you have to be careful everywhere. I get that.

I get that he's smart, and that he is entitled to his beliefs, based on his huge investment in PSA. If that's where/how you want to spend your money, it's all good. It is afterall HIS money.

But I would hardly label PWCC as "the fraudster of the day". Fraudster of the decade is certainly a more accurate moniker. The breadth of deception documented on the BO threads dwarfs anything else we've seen. And that's just focused on the alterations... the shill bidding (and PWCC's justification of doing so) is a whole different subject.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I get that he's smart, and that he is entitled to his beliefs, based on his huge investment in PSA. If that's where/how you want to spend your money, it's all good. It is afterall HIS money.

But I would hardly label PWCC as "the fraudster of the day". Fraudster of the decade is certainly a more accurate moniker. The breadth of deception documented on the BO threads dwarfs anything else we've seen. And that's just focused on the alterations... the shill bidding (and PWCC's justification of doing so) is a whole different subject.

But it doesn't dwarf everything else, it just appears that way based on the way the search is geared to find whitman111 and pwcc cards. That's where the easy paper trail is. I hardly need to defend my anti-PWCC credentials, but let's not kid ourselves that this is the only poisonous branch of the tree or whatever the metaphor is.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But it doesn't dwarf everything else, it just appears that way based on the way the search is geared to find whitman111 and pwcc cards. That's where the easy paper trail is. I hardly need to defend my anti-PWCC credentials, but let's not kid ourselves that this is the only poisonous branch of the tree or whatever the metaphor is.

Peter...
Your vast contributions to this topic and this forum are much appreciated, and you are far more diplomatic than most of us will ever be...

If the PWCC evidence of corruption doesn't dwarf anything else we've seen, I honestly cannot think of what beats it. Maybe Operation Bullpen, where the FBI exposed the Marino Family?

But this case isn't nearly put to bed! On BO, they are continuing to unearth new examples every day, with no end currently in sight.... Often to the tune of 5-figures PER CARD. The Marinos were creating fake Mantles that sold for a couple hundred bucks each. That's chump change compared to what's being exposed as we speak.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Peter...
Your vast contributions to this topic and this forum are much appreciated, and you are far more diplomatic than most of us will ever be...

If the PWCC evidence of corruption doesn't dwarf anything else we've seen, I honestly cannot think of what beats it. Maybe Operation Bullpen, where the FBI exposed the Marino Family?

But this case isn't nearly put to bed! On BO, they are continuing to unearth new examples every day, with no end currently in sight.... Often to the tune of 5-figures PER CARD. The Marinos were creating fake Mantles that sold for a couple hundred bucks each. That's chump change compared to what's being exposed as we speak.

In terms of the EVIDENCE that has been outed, yes, for sure. But that's a different question than the corruption itself. My opinion is that there are AHs who have sold vast amounts of very high dollar altered cards that could easily compete with PWCC. But the ability to track those does not exist absent certs from the TPGs going back to 1991. I think what you're seeing now in all its glory is mostly the low-hanging fruit.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In terms of the EVIDENCE that has been outed, yes, for sure. But that's a different question than the corruption itself. My opinion is that there are AHs who have sold vast amounts of very high dollar altered cards that could easily compete with PWCC. But the ability to track those does not exist absent certs from the TPGs going back to 1991.

Fair enough... thanks for clarifying.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In terms of the EVIDENCE that has been outed, yes, for sure. But that's a different question than the corruption itself. My opinion is that there are AHs who have sold vast amounts of very high dollar altered cards that could easily compete with PWCC. But the ability to track those does not exist absent certs from the TPGs going back to 1991. I think what you're seeing now in all its glory is mostly the low-hanging fruit.

My question would be did the other AH's due it actively in cahoots (man I love that word, you just don't get to use cahoots enough) with the card doctors. I know in my live auction I have accidentally sold trimmed cards, but I made it right.

[CobbSpikedMe]

I just noticed, I haven't seen any PWCC ads tonight. If someone already mentioned this I didn't catch it. Interesting for sure.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

My question would be did the other AH's due it actively in cahoots (man I love that word, you just don't get to use cahoots enough) with the card doctors. I know in my live auction I have accidentally sold trimmed cards, but I made it right.

All the major players know who the major doctors are.