Poll: response to recent PWCC revelations

Dpeck100 · #1 06-14-2019, 06:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irv

Some? You make it sound like it is a trivial, insignificant amount of cards.
Have you paid any attention at all to the Blowout thread?

No kidding, Frank.

I have been following along for past few months when the dudes on Blowout outed the modern cards first and naturally have been following along on these recent revelations. You may have missed the comment where I was listed as someone who had purchased from one of them.

PWCC is auctioning off over 19,000 cards this month alone. If they even average 15,000 a month that is 180,000 cards in a year. If a few hundred have been identified obviously that isn't good for anyone but in relation to the number of cards they sell it is a fraction.

Lets say that 200 are deemed altered. Obviously a higher number than anyone wants. It is just over one tenth of a percent of the cards sold during a 12 month period. If anyone doesn't think they have this same risk when buying a card from any seller they are dreaming.

The 52 Mantle that kicked this storm off would have been gladly accepted from all auction houses. Goodwin auctions sold a bad 52 Mantle PSA 8 that when the slab was sent to PSA broke open on Joe Orlando's desk.

The fake Mexican slabs were a huge issue for awhile. Anyone could have bought a Jordan at that time that was bad. Fraud exists. It seems like a day doesn't go by where someone is outing an auction of a fake card and they still have bids from people thinking they are getting a steal.

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

Many cards change hands over and over again. Many of the cards they sell will surface in other auctions and ignorance will be bliss.

mq711 · #2 06-14-2019, 07:42 AM

I think the premise of the poll is to gauge who will no longer/continue to buy from a dealer who sells known altered cards and not who is at fault. Not that it will affect their bottom line, but I won't buy from them again because of their, at best, deceptive behavior. If fraud is an accepted behavior then the dealers who play it clean will have to resort to such tactics to stay in business and then what are we stuck with?

I find it odd that experienced collectors think they were totally in the dark on what they were selling or that they didn't know it was wrong (that excuse didn't even work for George on Seinfeld). My 2cents.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 06-14-2019, 07:49 AM

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

Republicaninmass · #4 06-14-2019, 07:55 AM

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

Peter_Spaeth · #5 06-14-2019, 08:06 AM

It all depends how you do the analysis. David's methodology seems to assume one is buying a randomly selected card. He may be right on that premise but I am not sure it's a meaningful way to look at it. Iif the inquiry is framed as Ted frames it then yes obviously the risk of buying a high end card is at least somewhat higher in PWCC. I would quibble with exponentially though.

darwinbulldog · #6 06-14-2019, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It all depends how you do the analysis. David's methodology seems to assume one is buying a randomly selected card. He may be right on that premise but I am not sure it's a meaningful way to look at it. Iif the inquiry is framed as Ted frames it then yes obviously the risk of buying a high end card is at least somewhat higher in PWCC. I would quibble with exponentially though.

Quite. Exponentially is almost certainly the wrong word (has the risk doubled with each successive month PWCC has been in business? or tripled each year?), but then, I don't see many people other than mathematicians using it correctly these days.

Dpeck100 · #7 06-14-2019, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

There is risk when buying trading cards that can't entirely be avoided and if one thinks that boycotting PWCC reduces their risk significantly that is great but they are wrong.

I'd beg to differ. There is rampant, conclusive, undeniable evidence that cards were specifically sold by PWCC since at least 2017 that were altered by a well known professional card doctor. Even if it increases the risk .0001%, avoiding PWCC reduces that risk. It in fact reduces your risk exponentially in regard to PWCC high eye appeal, stickered, HOF, or high end cards.

During this time frame there has been a massive shift in market share. PWCC is by far the largest EBAY auction house and sells immensely more graded cards than anyone. They offer 99 cent auctions on the best cards that come to market. Probstein who one could consider their next closest competitor lists tons of items with high starting prices and while that may protect the seller it certainly isn't as appealing for the buyers.

The massive market shift we have seen has made it a very wise decision for many to stop listing their own cards and simply hand them over to PWCC. The record prices attract new submissions and the cycle repeats. These same sellers could have chosen to list the cards themselves but saw that the platform and number of buyers was immense and I assume the anonymity is a major attraction too.

There are countless EBAY sellers who list cards at BIN's and when they don't move ship them off to PWCC to let them fly.

EBAY is the ocean and PWCC is the most popular beach. Getting out of the water because a shark is present may save you for a moment but that same shark is going to go visit a different beach.

I live on Orlando where traffic is a nightmare. There is massive construction taking place on I-4. It is a zoo. In theory my greatest risk of an accident is there yet the closest I have come to getting into an accident was last weekend when a women almost backed into my beloved 911 Turbo. Risk is everywhere.

Exhibitman you disagree with everything I say but you are wrong in suggesting I think you and others are nuts for avoiding PWCC. Quite frankly most of you have already done so and it will have no impact on their business. I am simply saying those of us that look at the landscape and have made a conscious decision to be willing to continue to buy from them aren't nuts. I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

Exhibitman · #8 06-14-2019, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

During this time frame there has been a massive shift in market share. PWCC is by far the largest EBAY auction house and sells immensely more graded cards than anyone. They offer 99 cent auctions on the best cards that come to market. Probstein who one could consider their next closest competitor lists tons of items with high starting prices and while that may protect the seller it certainly isn't as appealing for the buyers.

The massive market shift we have seen has made it a very wise decision for many to stop listing their own cards and simply hand them over to PWCC. The record prices attract new submissions and the cycle repeats. These same sellers could have chosen to list the cards themselves but saw that the platform and number of buyers was immense and I assume the anonymity is a major attraction too.

There are countless EBAY sellers who list cards at BIN's and when they don't move ship them off to PWCC to let them fly.

EBAY is the ocean and PWCC is the most popular beach. Getting out of the water because a shark is present may save you for a moment but that same shark is going to go visit a different beach.

I live on Orlando where traffic is a nightmare. There is massive construction taking place on I-4. It is a zoo. In theory my greatest risk of an accident is there yet the closest I have come to getting into an accident was last weekend when a women almost backed into my beloved 911 Turbo. Risk is everywhere.

Exhibitman you disagree with everything I say but you are wrong in suggesting I think you and others are nuts for avoiding PWCC. Quite frankly most of you have already done so and it will have no impact on their business. I am simply saying those of us that look at the landscape and have made a conscious decision to be willing to continue to buy from them aren't nuts. I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

Yeah, but they sell altered cards, David. Lots of them. And they conspire with people like that obnoxious dead guy (I forget his name) to run up the bidding on the auctions. I don't want to build my collection on altered cards. That ain't the point. Nothing PWCC sells is really rare, it is the flip that is rare. If you buy the flip, just say so. Don't dress it up with a bunch of market gas.

As for the impact of boycotting PWCC, you are wrong. I passed on the N43 sale that PWCC had last week. And yeah, it did impact on their business because the cards I was interested in sold far below what I would have bid for them. A small impact to be sure, perhaps $500, but each incremental impact helps. A boycott is like building a brick structure: piece by piece it adds up.

Dpeck100 · #9 06-14-2019, 10:48 AM

If buying these two bums from one of the sets I collect from them makes me a flip buyer so be it.

Republicaninmass · #10 06-14-2019, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Yeah, but they sell altered cards, David. Lots of them. And they conspire with people like that obnoxious dead guy (I forget his name) to run up the bidding on the auctions. I don't want to build my collection on altered cards. That ain't the point. Nothing PWCC sells is really rare, it is the flip that is rare. If you buy the flip, just say so. Don't dress it up with a bunch of market gas.

As for the impact of boycotting PWCC, you are wrong. I passed on the N43 sale that PWCC had last week. And yeah, it did impact on their business because the cards I was interested in sold far below what I would have bid for them. A small impact to be sure, perhaps $500, but each incremental impact helps. A boycott is like building a brick structure: piece by piece it adds up.

I believe his name was Courtney Delorme. Posting as it should make for people doing their own due diligence related to auction shilling, cleaning, etc

perezfan · #11 06-14-2019, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I won't let something like this get in the way of trying to continue to build my collection. Period.

Well maybe we can't get in your way, but I'm beginning to have a good feeling that law enforcement will. Very good chance they are reading/processing this as we banter back and forth. This is one "building" that might soon be condemned.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #12 06-14-2019, 01:46 PM

my problem isn't with what Dave decides to do with his money. It's with his (and correct me if I'm wrong) apparent disdain for people who do back up their points of view with their wallets. There are any number of businesses which I refuse to patronize for myriad reasons.

It's not that I'm an idiot who doesn't realize that literally any seller could be selling altered cards. It's that I refuse to do business with someone I KNOW is involved in altering cards.

Will my dollars make a difference? Well, not mine individually, but just like voting in an election (which by your logic is pointless) if I don't stand by my convictions and cease doing business with PWCC I should automatically loose my right to bitch.

Plus I don't want my paltry contribution buying some knick knack that appears in the next issue of Oregon House Beautiful next to a smiling Brent and Betsy.

ruth_rookie · #13 06-14-2019, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

A good point. Because most dealers tend not to post, we may overlook that honest dealers -- and there are many -- have also been hurt by the PWCC blitz. The never-ending slew of record-smashing prices -- and I am on record as not trusting many of them -- attracts consignments away from others. And when these record prices are on cards that turned out to be altered, the problem is compounded.

Agreed. And compounded even more when the honest dealers finally throw in the towel because they can�t compete. They figure no hammer came down on PWCC, so if you can�t beat �em, join �em. They ask Moser to �conserve� cards for them. Moser explains that he has more work than he can handle, but here�s a number of friend who will hook you up. Highly recommended. Almost as good as me. In fact, I trained hm. And round and round we go.

View Poll Results: What is your response to the recent PWCC revelations?
1. I wasn't buying from or consigning to PWCC in the first place.	166	34.87%
I will no longer buy from/consign to PWCC.	163	34.24%
I will continue to buy from/consign to PWCC.	78	16.39%
I haven't decided	69	14.50%
Voters: 476. You may not vote on this poll

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Brent/PWCC interview on recent controversies	Stonepony	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	204	05-27-2019 06:33 PM
PWCC Recent Closings	Exhibitman	Boxing / Wrestling Cards & Memorabilia Forum	8	03-29-2018 05:05 PM
Recent PWCC Auction	Snapolit1	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	2	09-08-2016 01:50 PM
SMR response to recent 1914 Cracker Jack surge (or lack thereof)	Gobucsmagic74	Net54baseball Vintage (WWII & Older) Baseball Cards & New Member Introductions	7	08-04-2014 05:36 PM
In light of recent revelations are you more or less confident in TPA?	RichardSimon	Net54baseball Sports (Primarily) Vintage Memorabilia Forum incl. Game Used	19	01-21-2012 01:20 PM