The Opportunity

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

This is an insurance policy. If dealers or auction houses do this they will have to incorporate the cost of this guarantee (money back I assume) into their product. How much are you willing to pay for an authenticity guarantee from a dealer? My guess is that it will add 15-25% to the cost of everything you buy.

How many problem TPG cards have been identified, and how much in claims have they paid out? In other words, what is this "insurance policy" you speak of?

The concept I am proposing could involve a disclaimer on the LOA that it is only an opinion. The producer of the LOA - the dealer - will have his reputation behind it, and a money-back guarantee, which reputable dealers already have.

And, for that matter, if a dealer has a better reputation than the TPG, and many do, they would save the money otherwise spent for that TPG service by doing it themselves.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The great virtue of a market economy is that if dealers see an opportunity for profit in this, they will do it. Like Jay, I'm skeptical, but we'll see.

Exactly. Solutions can often be found by going back to the basics of the free market.

Originally Posted by steve B

It's most likely a matter of scale. How many game used items does a dealer typically handle in a year? A couple hundred?

How many cards does a dealer handle in a year... PWCC usually has a few thousand at all times, running lets say 4000 a week is 208,000 a year. Lets say someone handles 1/10 the volume. That's still close to 21,000 items a year. So they'd have to write 57 letters a day.

A dealer might just want to offer LOAs on the higher-end stuff, and something much simpler on low-end cards.

Originally Posted by steve B

I do think that a TPG that gathered the same information could do very well. But it's a hard thing to try to get started, with three major competitors.

In theory, yes, but if the graders working at tables, grading card after card and just waiting for the weekend, miss an alteration, how much do they really care? The company cares, but does the guy who made the mistake have any vested interest? A dealer protecting his hard-earned good reputation sure does.

All good comments! Not saying I have the answer, just saying I trust some people more than others when it comes to assessing baseball cards.

[itslarry]

How would the general public know who to trust, just follow what some dudes on a forum say? Ive seen enough auctionbhouses gey called out on here, no wat id trust them.
The few people i do trust 100% (or as close as can), no eay they could do volume necessary.


Does coaches corner offer a coa?

[oldjudge]

Originally Posted by Mark17

How many problem TPG cards have been identified, and how much in claims have they paid out? In other words, what is this "insurance policy" you speak of?

The concept I am proposing could involve a disclaimer on the LOA that it is only an opinion. The producer of the LOA - the dealer - will have his reputation behind it, and a money-back guarantee, which reputable dealers already have.

And, for that matter, if a dealer has a better reputation than the TPG, and many do, they would save the money otherwise spent for that TPG service by doing it themselves.


Exactly. Solutions can often be found by going back to the basics of the free market.



A dealer might just want to offer LOAs on the higher-end stuff, and something much simpler on low-end cards.



In theory, yes, but if the graders working at tables, grading card after card and just waiting for the weekend, miss an alteration, how much do they really care? The company cares, but does the guy who made the mistake have any vested interest? A dealer protecting his hard-earned good reputation sure does.

All good comments! Not saying I have the answer, just saying I trust some people more than others when it comes to assessing baseball cards.

If you don’t think the dealers would honor their guarantee then why would you want one? The only auctioneer who I ever saw say a card was overgraded was Rob Lifson. He would be the only person whose opinion I would trust. Otherwise, I think dealers are either not knowledgeable enough or conflicted or both.

[Promethius88]

Tommy:
Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.

Ted:
I'm listening.

Tommy:
Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.

Ted:
Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy:
'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.

Ted:
What's your point?

Tommy:
The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

Ted:
But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?

Tommy:
Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.

Ted:
Hmm. Okay, I'll buy from you.

[timn1]

the OP is offering a serious idea for a serious problem. Who knows whether it is feasible, but I for one would like to see threads like this remain serious rather than become yet more occasions for people to demonstrate how clever and cynical they are-

Originally Posted by Promethius88

Tommy:
Let's think about this for a sec, Ted, why do they put a guarantee on a box? Hmm, very interesting.

Ted:
I'm listening.

Tommy:
Here's how I see it. A guy puts a guarantee on the box 'cause he wants you to fell all warm and toasty inside.

Ted:
Yeah, makes a man feel good.

Tommy:
'Course it does. Ya think if you leave that box under your pillow at night, the Guarantee Fairy might come by and leave a quarter.

Ted:
What's your point?

Tommy:
The point is, how do you know the Guarantee Fairy isn't a crazy glue sniffer? "Building model airplanes" says the little fairy, but we're not buying it. Next thing you know, there's money missing off the dresser and your daughter's knocked up, I seen it a hundred times.

Ted:
But why do they put a guarantee on the box then?

Tommy:
Because they know all they solda ya was a guaranteed piece of shit. That's all it is. Hey, if you want me to take a dump in a box and mark it guaranteed, I will. I got spare time. But for right now, for your sake, for your daughter's sake, ya might wanna think about buying a quality item from me.

Ted:
Hmm. Okay, I'll buy from you.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by timn1

the OP is offering a serious idea for a serious problem. Who knows whether it is feasible, but I for one would like to see threads like this remain serious rather than become yet more occasions for people to demonstrate how clever and cynical they are-

Personally, I think TOMMYBOY hit it right square on the head. PSA's guarantee is horsesh** and this is a good example.

Much better than the car analogies so many like to throw around. AND IT's funny.

[Promethius88]

Originally Posted by timn1

the OP is offering a serious idea for a serious problem. Who knows whether it is feasible, but I for one would like to see threads like this remain serious rather than become yet more occasions for people to demonstrate how clever and cynical they are-

Wasn't meant to be "clever" or "cynical". This exchange could be looked at in a couple different ways. Is the person giving the guarantee PSA or is it the group of "trusted" card dealers? Obviously Chuck sees it as PSA, and that's fine, but really the same could be said if the hobby decides to elevate certain sellers to this "elite" status just so it makes us all feel better about our buying again.
I believe that trusted dealers that have been around for a long time are just that because they don't attempt to screw people or get too greedy. If those are the dealers you are comfortable buying from....buy from them. The problems are...
A. There are a ton of good dealers or collectors/part time dealers that are good, honest, hardworking people and you can trust them til the cows come home. Those folks can't have a say or be trusted anymore?
B. I see very little chance that a dealer is going to want to, much less have the time to scrutinize every single card that goes thru their hands, then guarantee what they are selling is 100% legit with a money back guarantee. Again, we don't know how detectable this work is that's being done. Yes, an honest dealer will back up his/her items but what are we going to do, funnel every single card thru just this group?
C. Conflict of interest. Unless a dealer is willing to give up buying/selling, there would always be that possibility for conflict of interest. Yes, they are honest and have been for years. But we have all seen what dangling a potential windfall in front of faces has done to good people in the past.

I don't have the answers and nobody else does at this point either. I get that there are a lot of problems and the blame falls in many laps. I think all the information needs to come out, the dust has to settle, cooler heads have to prevail. Then, and only then can we come up with some changes that are going to be positive and lasting.
Personally, I can't believe the hate and nastiness that I have seen posted all over just due to differing opinions. I remember a time when people could have different opinions and not be blasted for them. I think that might have been a time when we actually respected each other....before the internet.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Mark17

In theory, yes, but if the graders working at tables, grading card after card and just waiting for the weekend, miss an alteration, how much do they really care? The company cares, but does the guy who made the mistake have any vested interest? A dealer protecting his hard-earned good reputation sure does.

All good comments! Not saying I have the answer, just saying I trust some people more than others when it comes to assessing baseball cards.

In Stamps, the people doing the authentication/grading are experts, and are often dealers. They generally specialize in a particular area.
There is also some private expertization by respected dealers, although the most recent one in the US died a few years ago. He offered a really bare bones service, $5 for any stamp, and the certificate was a small printed piece of paper with the minimum required info.

In other countries the expertizers are experts in a narrow area, and may be dealers. They don't really do grading. The culture varies from one country to the next. At least once, the person considered to be THE expert on a single issue has turned out to also be the person forging the overprints. So all type II or ones of a particular color are now known to be fake, and he approved all of them - Of course he made them, so...

Overall, I think that having a service that's actually reliable, and that takes the time and is transparent about the information - No simple "A", but an "A" with a detailed explanation. is the way to go. I've debated giving it a try, but I'm very slow and hopelessly disorganized. I figure it would take a good deal of money and at least 3-4 people to even get started. And the chance of success compared to PSA where the registry is well developed and active is very small.
I'd have a registry that accepted cards from other graders, with varying weights. That's pretty much the only way I can see to make any headway in the registry area.