"Possibly doctored" cards at the National.....

[calvindog]

Who buys a raw 52 Mantle or mid-grade T206 Cobb?

Edited to add: or any expensive card that common sense dictates should be in a holder. If an expensive common issue card (T206, 50s Topps) is being sold raw or in a non-PSA or SGC holder you can be certain it’s altered. And yes even in a PSA or SGC holder we have learned it can be altered. But if it’s raw you can be certain it is no matter how vociferously the seller tries to convince you it isn’t.

[DJCollector1]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who buys a raw 52 Mantle or mid-grade T206 Cobb?

Nobody does that I know of.
Not raw, I'm speaking of already graded.
Everyone is of course going the graded route.....but you can still examine the card in detail, and use a black light on it.
(actually, I have never used a black light on a card that is already slabbed, but I'm sure you can do it)

I didn't spell it out specifically, but I am sure there are many that use black lights, or whatever it is they can to help examine a higher end card like that as best they can....... even though it is already slabbed.

[Johnny630]

Don’t buy any big ticket items at the National. Save your money and wait for
the hobby to get hit considerably before you buy a big item. If the card market doesn’t go down you missed it so what you’ll have cash and right now I’d rather be cash heavy and card light then card heavy and cash light.
I will never bring a black light to a show a 10x coin Loupe will be my only weapon along with 20/20.

In my opinion for anything positive to happen a considerable downtrend and amount of money loss has to occur for everyone involved kinda like a take your lumps and bumps get hit then grow. If the collector/investor keeps fueling money to tpg’s ,auction houses, and dealers things will never change for the better. It happens to the US stock market ever so often then it always pops back stronger then ever...it will be healthy in the long run to the hobby. To many people are addicted to cards. I just hope they lay off them and can control themselves for a couple of years until the smoke clears.

[ullmandds]

Seeing as the national tends to have notoriously high prices this would be a foolish endeavor...But to answer your question every time I go to a card show I bring a black light and a loop as part of my arsenal.

[DJCollector1]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Don’t buy any big ticket items at the National. Save your money and wait for
the hobby to get hit considerably before you buy a big item. If the card market doesn’t go down you missed it so what you’ll have cash and right now I’d rather be cash heavy and card light then card heavy and cash light.
I will never bring a black light to a show a 10x coin Loupe will be my only weapon along with 20/20.

As I mentioned, I'm not going to the National, and it will be a while before I make another large purchase like that.

But you can bet there can and will be plenty of bigger items swapping hands, through outright purchase, and or trades at the National I'm sure.

I didn't even mention a loupe, although I know thats another one of the "go-to's" that many use in those cases.

I figure people using "whatever they can" to scrutinize cards this year will be far more common than in years past.
But as I alluded to , I would have wanted to give it a "cursory once over" even in the past.
I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of card scrutiny this year.
FAR MORE than ever before.
Not that THAT is a bad thing. It's just too bad all of this had to happen.
Short term this is really a bad spot for the hobby.
But long term, hopefully it will be a good thing for us all.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

To actually answer your question I have had people use black lights at some of the large East Coast shows I am set up at. Doesn't insult me in the slightest. Even before all this went down I couldn't blame them.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by DJCollector1

As I mentioned, I'm not going to the National, and it will be a while before I make another large purchase like that.

But you can bet there can and will be plenty of bigger items swapping hands, through outright purchase, and or trades at the National I'm sure.

I didn't even mention a loupe, although I know thats another one of the "go-to's" that many use in those cases.

I figure people using "whatever they can" to scrutinize cards this year will be far more common than in years past.
But as I alluded to , I would have wanted to give it a "cursory once over" even in the past.
I'm guessing there will be a tremendous amount of card scrutiny this year.
FAR MORE than ever before.
Not that THAT is a bad thing. It's just too bad all of this had to happen.
Short term this is really a bad spot for the hobby.
But long term, hopefully it will be a good thing for us all.

I posted long ago that will be in the buyers arsenal in negotiations to question if the Cert is clean. Will be supply and demand. If theres someone making an offer and the dealer doesnt need to haggle with price due to a clean cert than that buyer will get the card and you can keep your loupe or black light to yourself

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Don’t buy any big ticket items at the National. Save your money and wait for
the hobby to get hit considerably before you buy a big item. If the card market doesn’t go down you missed it so what you’ll have cash and right now I’d rather be cash heavy and card light then card heavy and cash light.
I will never bring a black light to a show a 10x coin Loupe will be my only weapon along with 20/20.

In my opinion for anything positive to happen a considerable downtrend and amount of money loss has to occur for everyone involved kinda like a take your lumps and bumps get hit then grow. If the collector/investor keeps fueling money to tpg’s ,auction houses, and dealers things will never change for the better. It happens to the US stock market ever so often then it always pops back stronger then ever...it will be healthy in the long run to the hobby. To many people are addicted to cards. I just hope they lay off them and can control themselves for a couple of years until the smoke clears.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Av1colGry9s




"I was a 3 bird a day pusstycat before I found BA". BA can help you.

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who buys a raw 52 Mantle or mid-grade T206 Cobb?

You can shine light through plastic.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who buys a raw 52 Mantle or mid-grade T206 Cobb?

Edited to add: or any expensive card that common sense dictates should be in a holder. If an expensive common issue card (T206, 50s Topps) is being sold raw or in a non-PSA or SGC holder you can be certain it’s altered. And yes even in a PSA or SGC holder we have learned it can be altered. But if it’s raw you can be certain it is no matter how vociferously the seller tries to convince you it isn’t.

If I had that sort of money to spend, and was able to examine the card in person, I would.

[packs]

Originally Posted by steve B

If I had that sort of money to spend, and was able to examine the card in person, I would.

You'd probably need 80% less money to buy a raw 52 Mantle. And then you'd lose the 20% you paid when it turned out to be a reprint.

[sb1]

There will be plenty of nice raw cards at the National with zero problems. Deal with reputable people and you will not have to worry. I will have many nice 52 Topps High #s which are 100% untampered with, the ones I did get graded were mostly 6-7's, a few 5's and a few 8's(I'll also have the PSA graded ones there). I will also have two sets of raw 1955 Topps All-American's, most Nrmt +/- and again all without issue. As an example, for the last two years i have been selling 1958-1963 Topps from the original owner. Several I had graded, again mostly 6-8's, but have sold hundreds of high grade raw cards from the collection. They do still exist! Just a couple of examples, obviously postwar. Provenance will start to mean more and more to collectors, when and where available.


A somewhat contrarian position might be to by raw instead of graded, perhaps the odds of finding untampered with cards might be better.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

You'd probably need 80% less money to buy a raw 52 Mantle. And then you'd lose the 20% you paid when it turned out to be a reprint.

No, I know what real cards look and feel like. like most collectors who started in the late 70's, I've probably physically handled more 52T and T206 than most dealers who began their business in the early 90's or later. Pretty much every table at every show had rubber banded stacks of them. The local shop would get in collections and being the kid that hung out there, I sometimes got to be the first one to really look at them.

Hey how about you send me a fake and real one and I'll send the fake back to you? If you're right, it's a coin toss, better odds than Vegas. (Also applies to commons, and pretty much any set that isn't so uncommon that I've never seen one.

[Snapolit1]

My black light is used strictly for listening to Hendrix and Pink Floyd and smoking with hippies.

[kateighty]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

My black light is used strictly for listening to Hendrix and Pink Floyd and smoking with hippies.

Bahahaha...that was a good one!

[packs]

Originally Posted by steve B

No, I know what real cards look and feel like. like most collectors who started in the late 70's, I've probably physically handled more 52T and T206 than most dealers who began their business in the early 90's or later. Pretty much every table at every show had rubber banded stacks of them. The local shop would get in collections and being the kid that hung out there, I sometimes got to be the first one to really look at them.

Hey how about you send me a fake and real one and I'll send the fake back to you? If you're right, it's a coin toss, better odds than Vegas. (Also applies to commons, and pretty much any set that isn't so uncommon that I've never seen one.

I don't think the issue is whether one person can tell the difference. There is no logical reason why it wouldn't be slabbed unless there was something about the card that made it untouchable to TPG. People buy tables at shows to make money. Anyone who wants to make money is going to have a card like that graded, unless there's something wrong with it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I don't think the issue is whether one person can tell the difference. There is no logical reason why it wouldn't be slabbed unless there was something about the card that made it untouchable to TPG. People buy tables at shows to make money. Anyone who wants to make money is going to have a card like that graded, unless there's something wrong with it.

The question was who would buy a card like that ungraded.
I'm confident I can spot stuff at least as well as TPG, maybe better in some cases.

If the question had been if that's a good plan for all or even most collectors, that's different.

Sadly, I have had multiple chances to buy some pretty "big" cards, and pretty much never did. The local dealer came back from either the national or philly with a 52 Mantle that had sold for a record price, and over the next few years had maybe 3-4 of them. They were expensive at the time compared to other cards, so I don't mind as much. But there were a few others....

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by steve B

The question was who would buy a card like that ungraded.

Any card like this would be IMMEDIATELY bought/flipped by a dealer to be holdered before any one of us made it in the show. Even with a dealer badge

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by steve B

The question was who would buy a card like that ungraded.
I'm confident I can spot stuff at least as well as TPG, maybe better in some cases.

If the question had been if that's a good plan for all or even most collectors, that's different.

So you’d buy a seemingly near mint raw 52 Mantle for let’s say the price of a PSA 6? I’m certain you wouldn’t. No one would unless that person works the PSA slabbing machine. I’m not sure you understand the point made. We’re not suggesting one can’t spot an altered card; we’re saying that the value the PSA slab brings (rightly or wrongly) is the determining factor of value, not the razor sharp edges.

[BigBeerGut]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Who buys a raw 52 Mantle or mid-grade T206 Cobb?

Edited to add: or any expensive card that common sense dictates should be in a holder. If an expensive common issue card (T206, 50s Topps) is being sold raw or in a non-PSA or SGC holder you can be certain it’s altered. And yes even in a PSA or SGC holder we have learned it can be altered. But if it’s raw you can be certain it is no matter how vociferously the seller tries to convince you it isn’t.

Calvin! Does this mean there are NO cards that are raw that are not altered? So it is not worthwhile to send any more cards in to any TPG? It is either already graded or raw and altered. Thats it. Close down the TPGs there are no more cards to grade
"Mike" drop

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Calvin! Does this mean there are NO cards that are raw that are not altered? So it is not worthwhile to send any more cards in to any TPG? It is either already graded or raw and altered. Thats it. Close down the TPGs there are no more cards to grade
"Mike" drop

The guys that found the mantle in the attic, inherited them or whatever , and have have zero invested in it and can submit in for grading and can do that all day. but why ask for 10,000 for a card or pay for that on a raw card..

He is basically talking about in the long run. Some are legit but its an unwise gamble. Some people win in vegas, most lose.....

[Arazi4442]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The guys that found the mantle in the attic, inherited them or whatever , and have have zero invested in it and can submit in for grading and can do that all day. but why ask for 10,000 for a card or pay for that on a raw card..

He is basically talking about in the long run. Some are legit but its an unwise gamble. Some people win in vegas, most lose.....

Wait a minute, some people win in Vegas? That has NOT been my experience.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Wait a minute, some people win in Vegas? That has NOT been my experience.

yeah the people that put everything on black and if win leave and go home....those about the only winners.. and the people that bet the Nationals to win the NL this year... who will either win bet or have a great hedge..

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

yeah the people that put everything on black and if win leave and go home....those about the only winners.. and the people that bet the Nationals to win the NL this year... who will either win bet or have a great hedge..

My brother "won"

We were visiting on a camping trip and stopped in a casino to go to the buffet. (All you can eat, so in a way I "won" too being a hungry high school kid. especially at the soft serve ice cream dispenser )
Someone hit a dollar slot for more than he could carry, and my brother being 8 followed along picking up the dropped silver dollars.
Security got involved.
They brought over the winner, still carrying an armload of coins, and gave dad a lecture about letting his kid steal. letting was a stretch, none of us even knew.
About 30 seconds into the lecture the guy asked "how much did the kid get? My brother showed him 2 fistfuls of dollars, around $11 which isn't bad for an 8 year old.
The guy was like " you brought me all the way over here for $11?! let the kid keep it! and walked away to cash in his dollars.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Calvin! Does this mean there are NO cards that are raw that are not altered? So it is not worthwhile to send any more cards in to any TPG? It is either already graded or raw and altered. Thats it. Close down the TPGs there are no more cards to grade
"Mike" drop

oh, there are many many cards to grade. Just crack them out of the stupid plastic, dip, color, trim and repeat. That's all that has been done since inception anyway. recycled fake cards is all that's left.

[orly57]

Originally Posted by BigBeerGut

Calvin! Does this mean there are NO cards that are raw that are not altered? So it is not worthwhile to send any more cards in to any TPG? It is either already graded or raw and altered. Thats it. Close down the TPGs there are no more cards to grade
"Mike" drop

Of course there are high dollar raw cards out there that haven’t been altered. They are in basements and private collections. They are NOT at the National. Why would a dealer have a raw 52 mantle, when psa is 10 feet away? The answer is: it’s already been graded and received an “A” or a grade that was not satisfactory to the dealer. He thinks he can sell it to a treasure hunter raw for more than he would have with the grade it received. Jeff’s point is that experienced dealers don’t buy booths at the National, spend money on travel and hotel expenses, etc so they can leave money on the table. Sure, you can find a raw t206 common that will grade a bit higher than you paid, but it’s not happening with high dollar cards. If a raw 52 mantle looks like a 5 and the dealer wants psa 4-5 prices for it, rest assured it once sat in a 3 holder or worse. It’s just common sense.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Wonder if you could make a killing selling black lights and loupes at the show

[orly57]

If psa graders can’t spot doctored cards in the comfort of their offices, with all the tools and gadgets, I’m not sure that some dude with a black light and pocket magnifying glass is going to be single-handedly uncovering rampant fraud at the National.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Originally Posted by orly57

If psa graders can’t spot doctored cards in the comfort of their offices, with all the tools and gadgets, I’m not sure that some dude with a black light and pocket magnifying glass is going to be single-handedly uncovering rampant fraud at the National.

Not what I meant. I meant selling the devices. maybe a high energy demonstration, draw some attention.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by orly57

Of course there are high dollar raw cards out there that haven’t been altered. They are in basements and private collections. They are NOT at the National. Why would a dealer have a raw 52 mantle, when psa is 10 feet away? The answer is: it’s already been graded and received an “A” or a grade that was not satisfactory to the dealer. He thinks he can sell it to a treasure hunter raw for more than he would have with the grade it received. Jeff’s point is that experienced dealers don’t buy booths at the National, spend money on travel and hotel expenses, etc so they can leave money on the table. Sure, you can find a raw t206 common that will grade a bit higher than you paid, but it’s not happening with high dollar cards. If a raw 52 mantle looks like a 5 and the dealer wants psa 4-5 prices for it, rest assured it once sat in a 3 holder or worse. It’s just common sense.

The Battlefield business model. I mean Candiman. I mean, whoever they are now.