Today's Wash. Post has major piece re the BB card fraud

perezfan · #1 07-22-2019, 01:01 PM

Hard to stomach the irony of it all... This case will decide whether Brent's vision of "conservation" is deemed acceptable, and has the potential to adversely change the entire hobby as we know it. Yet it is one of us collectors who is leading this charge!

And he was the most vocal of anyone here when it came time to condemn Mastro/Allen for the same exact things that PWCC is doing (shilling, altering, trimming, deceiving, etc.)

Perhaps he will proudly wear this feather in his cap when PWCC is exonerated, and Brent's Tenets inevitably become the hobby norm.

This is beyond depressing, and further demonstrates that it truly is only about money.

Johnny630 · #2 07-22-2019, 01:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Hard to stomach the irony of it all... This case will decide whether Brent's vision of "conservation" is deemed acceptable, and has the potential to adversely change the entire hobby as we know it. Yet it is one of us collectors who is leading this charge!

And he was the most vocal of anyone here when it came time to condemn Mastro/Allen for the same exact things that PWCC is doing (shilling, altering, trimming, deceiving, etc.)

Perhaps he will proudly wear this feather in his cap when PWCC is exonerated, and Brent's Tenets inevitably become the hobby norm.

This is beyond depressing, and further demonstrates that it truly is only about money.

It's going to be very very difficult to prove.....so sad and agree this is beyond depressing.....it's a business/industry...............not a HOBBY.
Has not been a hobby for many for years.......sad but we all have known this for years...The Industry is the Wild Wild West filled with whatever kinda business you wanna call it.....thinking any differently has been proven to be naive.

sportscardpete · #3 07-22-2019, 01:45 PM

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

samosa4u · #4 07-22-2019, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

I agree with you. Plus he wrote "according to hobby scuttlebutt," so it's only a rumor.

Section103 · #5 07-22-2019, 01:59 PM

Hobby Scuttlebutt is a great user id for this or any related board.

perezfan · #6 07-22-2019, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

It's been widely speculated and extensively discussed elsewhere.

jhs5120 · #7 07-22-2019, 02:54 PM

I'm sure we will get an answer soon...

bnorth · #8 07-22-2019, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I'm sure we will get an answer soon...

If he is taking this long I hope he is hitting the preview button so he doesn't lose his reply and have to start over.

calvindog · #9 07-22-2019, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

if he is taking this long i hope he is hitting the preview button so he doesn't lose his reply and have to start over.

lol

samosa4u · #10 07-22-2019, 02:57 PM

I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't Brent have to get charged first? If he hasn't been charged with any crime yet, then why would he hire a criminal lawyer?

ruth-gehrig · #11 07-22-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't Brent have to get charged first? If he hasn't been charged with any crime yet, then why would he hire a criminal lawyer?

Its Brent's hope that this PREVENTS him from being charged, hence all the cooperation and restitution. Question is will all this cooperation prevent Brent from going to jail which is where Jeff has previously said he belongs?

calvindog · #12 07-22-2019, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Who is responsible for providing information on weather a card has been altered (or conserved)?

Back to my original scenario, if Dealer X consigned 5,000 since 2012 through PWCC and has now been "outed" as a potential card doctor. What is the process for notifying victims? How many are notified?

Maybe 100 of the 5,000 cards have been publicly outed. What is the process? Do you start with the publicly outed "clearly altered cards" then politely ask Dealer X if any others were "clearly altered?" Is it a threshold?

I'm not trying to criticize the process, again, I'm just curious.

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

As to who is providing info on bad cards, keep in mind that I don't represent every person who consigned to PWCC. With the government's help, with the help of the Blowout guys who did incredible work here, we're able to determine some of the bad cards. The government has sources who have provided them info about cards, some of that is shared with us and a discussion is had. I can tell you that we are erring on the side of giving refunds back. This is a fluid situation as I have said. It is not a perfect situation by any means, but it's a start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Its Brent's hope that this PREVENTS him from being charged, hence all the cooperation and restitution. Question is will all this cooperation prevent Brent from going to jail which is where Jeff has previously said he belongs?

Michael, this decision isn't up to me. I took the case primarily to accomplish something more for buyers harmed than what had previously occurred in other hobby cases. As for my opinions on the people involved, whatever I said I believed but was before significant assistance has been provided to the government. But punishment is not my decision.

I'll speak more about this as time goes on and I'm willing to be contacted with any bad cards that need to be refunded.

Johnny630 · #13 07-22-2019, 03:00 PM

I'm I the only one on this board that places a lot of fault on PSA in regards to all this mess???

Not Criminal....Making a Lot of Mistakes by not catching Obvious Alterations which according to their grading requirements are not supposed to get a number grade in holder.

What is PSA's purpose in the industry ????

calvindog · #14 07-22-2019, 03:47 PM

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

jhs5120 · #15 07-22-2019, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

Interesting.

Would you be able to shed light on the other dealers contributing to this fund and whether PSA has been helpful in the investigation?

samosa4u · #16 07-22-2019, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI.

Then what is being done about Gary Moser? It appears that majority of the outed cards on BO were worked on by him.

Fuddjcal · #17 07-22-2019, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

WOW, just wow. Kinda like a hard kick right to the nards.

I respect what you are trying to do. I really wish you were on the other side of history because what your client has done for 15 years is just shameful.

You have railed against what he has done, because you know, you know. This isn't just something that happened ooooooppppps ie. This was a methodical crime for 15 years of doctoring cards and identifying which ones would be better for their criminal activity, rinse and repeat. That's the grossness of it all. Just a complete dick with a complete disrespect for the law, your client Brent Mastro

I wish you were on the side of the collector instead mr. get rich quick schemer Brent Mastro. That's all he is my handsome friend, common criminal. Nothing special. So, good luck to you in your endeavors. To Brent Mastro, not so much.

perezfan · #18 07-22-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I'm I the only one on this board that places a lot of fault on PSA in regards to all this mess???

Not Criminal....Making a Lot of Mistakes by not catching Obvious Alterations which according to their grading requirements are not supposed to get a number grade in holder.

What is PSA's purpose in the industry ????

I�ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

Regardless... thanks to Jeff for coming on to explain and clarify. The fact that PWCC has acknowledged the alterations and misrepresentations is a good start. So are the refunds (which I have a hunch are due to some sound legal counsel). Hopefully this case can transpire in such a way that tenets and conservation never become the new �norm�. It will be an interesting next few months.

Johnny630 · #19 07-22-2019, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I�ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

Regardless... thanks to Jeff for coming on to explain and clarify. The fact that PWCC has acknowledged the alterations and misrepresentations is a good start. So are the refunds (which I have a hunch are due to some sound legal counsel). Hopefully this case can transpire in such a way that tenets and conservation never become the new �norm�. It will be an interesting next few months.

Agree Sir. I'm also very thankful for Jeffrey's response. Class Act

Exhibitman · #20 07-22-2019, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

PSA is worse than useless. Greedy, arrogant and inept are the politer terms I can use to describe them. But there are too many people with too much money at risk for PSA to be put out of business by anything short of a criminal conviction, and they know it, so they will never step up and do the right thing for the consumers who relied on their skills and guarantee because they don't have to. They're the Juggernaut, bitches!

I think I'll pass on the PSA slabs next week...sure gonna make my carry-on lighter going home from the show.

Den*nis O*Brien · #21 07-22-2019, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

That Attorney Lichtman would hitch his wagon to Brentsie and Betsie. He has demonstrated, over the years, that he is a serious collector with nice "Stuff". He could well be a victim of the antics PWCC is being accused of. Even if he was approached by those two I believe that every attorney has the option of saying "No Thanks"......or in this case "Your joking ...right?" I will ad that the only contact I have ever had with him was visiting his Gallery....Nice "Stuff".
While every defendant is entitled to a competent representation I will be shocked and dismayed if a notable board member fills that role.
Dennis O'Brien in Wisconsin

toledo_mudhen · #22 07-23-2019, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

+1

Fuddjcal · #23 07-22-2019, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

Hard to stomach the irony of it all... This case will decide whether Brent's vision of "conservation" is deemed acceptable, and has the potential to adversely change the entire hobby as we know it. Yet it is one of us collectors who is leading this charge!

And he was the most vocal of anyone here when it came time to condemn Mastro/Allen for the same exact things that PWCC is doing (shilling, altering, trimming, deceiving, etc.)

Perhaps he will proudly wear this feather in his cap when PWCC is exonerated, and Brent's Tenets inevitably become the hobby norm.

This is beyond depressing, and further demonstrates that it truly is only about money.

He'll always be little Brenty Mastro to me.

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