Today's Wash. Post has major piece re the BB card fraud

sportscardpete · #1 07-22-2019, 01:45 PM

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

samosa4u · #2 07-22-2019, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

I agree with you. Plus he wrote "according to hobby scuttlebutt," so it's only a rumor.

Section103 · #3 07-22-2019, 01:59 PM

Hobby Scuttlebutt is a great user id for this or any related board.

perezfan · #4 07-22-2019, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

It's been widely speculated and extensively discussed elsewhere.

jhs5120 · #5 07-22-2019, 02:54 PM

I'm sure we will get an answer soon...

bnorth · #6 07-22-2019, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I'm sure we will get an answer soon...

If he is taking this long I hope he is hitting the preview button so he doesn't lose his reply and have to start over.

calvindog · #7 07-22-2019, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bnorth

if he is taking this long i hope he is hitting the preview button so he doesn't lose his reply and have to start over.

lol

bnorth · #8 07-22-2019, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

lol

All I care about is if there are gift baskets or not.

For the right gift basket i could be all for card restoration as the new thing.

samosa4u · #9 07-22-2019, 02:57 PM

I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't Brent have to get charged first? If he hasn't been charged with any crime yet, then why would he hire a criminal lawyer?

ruth-gehrig · #10 07-22-2019, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

I'm no lawyer, but wouldn't Brent have to get charged first? If he hasn't been charged with any crime yet, then why would he hire a criminal lawyer?

Its Brent's hope that this PREVENTS him from being charged, hence all the cooperation and restitution. Question is will all this cooperation prevent Brent from going to jail which is where Jeff has previously said he belongs?

calvindog · #11 07-22-2019, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Who is responsible for providing information on weather a card has been altered (or conserved)?

Back to my original scenario, if Dealer X consigned 5,000 since 2012 through PWCC and has now been "outed" as a potential card doctor. What is the process for notifying victims? How many are notified?

Maybe 100 of the 5,000 cards have been publicly outed. What is the process? Do you start with the publicly outed "clearly altered cards" then politely ask Dealer X if any others were "clearly altered?" Is it a threshold?

I'm not trying to criticize the process, again, I'm just curious.

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

As to who is providing info on bad cards, keep in mind that I don't represent every person who consigned to PWCC. With the government's help, with the help of the Blowout guys who did incredible work here, we're able to determine some of the bad cards. The government has sources who have provided them info about cards, some of that is shared with us and a discussion is had. I can tell you that we are erring on the side of giving refunds back. This is a fluid situation as I have said. It is not a perfect situation by any means, but it's a start.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Its Brent's hope that this PREVENTS him from being charged, hence all the cooperation and restitution. Question is will all this cooperation prevent Brent from going to jail which is where Jeff has previously said he belongs?

Michael, this decision isn't up to me. I took the case primarily to accomplish something more for buyers harmed than what had previously occurred in other hobby cases. As for my opinions on the people involved, whatever I said I believed but was before significant assistance has been provided to the government. But punishment is not my decision.

I'll speak more about this as time goes on and I'm willing to be contacted with any bad cards that need to be refunded.

jhs5120 · #12 07-22-2019, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

As to who is providing info on bad cards, keep in mind that I don't represent every person who consigned to PWCC. With the government's help, with the help of the Blowout guys who did incredible work here, we're able to determine some of the bad cards. The government has sources who have provided them info about cards, some of that is shared with us and a discussion is had. I can tell you that we are erring on the side of giving refunds back. This is a fluid situation as I have said. It is not a perfect situation by any means, but it's a start.

I agree that the Blowout guys are doing great work - they're identifying victims. What steps is Brent taking to identifying additional victims?

Aquarian Sports Cards · #13 07-22-2019, 06:25 PM

I guess (not that Jeff can be expected to answer) my big question is whether or not PWCC is still trying to portray themselves as innocent victims of the card doctoring "community" or are they being upfront about the fact that they were in cahoots with them.

BengoughingForAwhile · #14 07-22-2019, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

I agree that the Blowout guys are doing great work - they're identifying victims. What steps is Brent taking to identifying additional victims?

If PWCC just released the complete list to the public of all Moser related cards that have gone through their auction house it would save the Blowout guys and all the buyers of these cards a whole lot of time and trouble. Is every buyer of every card in the history of PWCC auctions supposed to go over every card they ever purchased and try and do research to determine if they were defrauded??? That's ridiculous.

Rhotchkiss · #15 07-22-2019, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

the Blowout guys who did incredible work here,

I agree with this.

My only comments to this thread are:

Thank you Blowout! Please keep up the great work. It is making a difference. The collecting community appreciates your efforts. Go BODA!

Jeff, please do your best to do good.

OldOriole · #16 07-22-2019, 08:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jeff, please do your best to do good.

Amen.

bounce · #17 07-22-2019, 11:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Every card that an 'outed' dealer/consignor has provided to PWCC is not a bad card. Some cards were cracked out and resubmitted; some had a corner pressed down. Not every card in a submission is bad when there is 1, 2 or even 10 bad ones in a submission.

No doubt what you've said is true. However, this whole process speeds up exponentially if just the information around the submissions is shared in some manner. Start with the entire suspect population, break it down from there (a lot of that work is probably already done, but I doubt it's complete).

Appreciate what you're doing, but if there isn't going to be real transparency in this cleaning up then we aren't that much further along. "Trust me" aren't words most of the community is going to be satisfied with. "Show us" would go much further.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 07-22-2019, 11:28 PM

Brent has been selling cards for Gary since at least the late 2000s and I believe it was earlier than that. I imagine most of those cards are no longer with the original purchasers out of prewarcardcollector/PWCC and cannot be traced. And as stated, Gary is just one piece of the PWCC puzzle. Obviously whatever can be done to get these cards off the market is better than nothing, but the ability to rectify decades of fraud is quite limited.

Johnny630 · #19 07-22-2019, 03:00 PM

I'm I the only one on this board that places a lot of fault on PSA in regards to all this mess???

Not Criminal....Making a Lot of Mistakes by not catching Obvious Alterations which according to their grading requirements are not supposed to get a number grade in holder.

What is PSA's purpose in the industry ????

calvindog · #20 07-22-2019, 03:47 PM

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

jhs5120 · #21 07-22-2019, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

Interesting.

Would you be able to shed light on the other dealers contributing to this fund and whether PSA has been helpful in the investigation?

calvindog · #22 07-22-2019, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Interesting.

Would you be able to shed light on the other dealers contributing to this fund and whether PSA has been helpful in the investigation?

From what I�ve seen thus far, all the dealers who consigned altered cards are paying back buyers through PWCC. If there is any dispute as to whether a card deserves a refund, Brent is paying the money back himself. As for PSA, they are not being as helpful.

jhs5120 · #23 07-22-2019, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

From what I’ve seen thus far, all the dealers who consigned altered cards are paying back buyers through PWCC. If there is any dispute as to whether a card deserves a refund, Brent is paying the money back himself. As for PSA, they are not being as helpful.

How far back and to what degree have buyers been notified? For example, if Dealer X (who has been discovered as a potential card doctor) has consigned 5,000 cards since 2012 through PWCC, have the buyers for all 5,000 cards been notified? Or is it above a threshold? I'm mostly just curious how this has been decided.

jad22 · #24 07-22-2019, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

From what I�ve seen thus far, all the dealers who consigned altered cards are paying back buyers through PWCC. If there is any dispute as to whether a card deserves a refund, Brent is paying the money back himself. As for PSA, they are not being as helpful.

Not living up to the �PSA guarantee�? Shocking.

Duluth Eskimo · #25 07-22-2019, 04:51 PM

Kudos to you for commenting.

samosa4u · #26 07-22-2019, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI.

Then what is being done about Gary Moser? It appears that majority of the outed cards on BO were worked on by him.

Fuddjcal · #27 07-22-2019, 09:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by calvindog

I hate to do anything that might stop endless speculation and attacks, but I figured I should post anyway. Yes, I'm representing Brent in this investigation and yes, this is after I bashed him for years on Net 54. And no, I'm not suggesting that I'm representing him because every person deserves assistance of counsel in all criminal cases and investigations as guaranteed by the Sixth Amendment, even though they do. No, I'm not doing it for the money (my baseball card hobby-related income is about 1% of my total income over the last ten years).

I have represented dozens of people in the hobby, some civilly and some in connection with criminal cases and investigations. I represented numerous witnesses against Mastro and Allen, et al. and against others accused of fraud. In each and every representation I have cooperated the client with FBI, helped them in their prosecutions against others and assisted them in non-public ways. Since I began representing Brent, he has been cooperating with the FBI, has reached out to people who purchased altered cards from PWCC and refunded money, and is providing all documentation from his dealings with any and all hobby dealers/consignors. Unlike in Mastro where those defendants destroyed records, "cooperated" minimally and refused to pay back a single dollar of restitution to their victims, I'm actually accomplishing more with Brent to assist the government in getting victims paid back and to stop the fraud. This is why I decided to take the case, after consulting with the FBI. In addition, Brent (and other dealers) have agreed to put money into a restitution fund to refund money to people who purchased altered cards years ago, well past the statute of limitations time period, even though they are not required to do so by law. As a collector, I am less concerned with why clients decide to assist the government than with the actual impact of their cooperation. And yes, I have represented people who have cooperated with the government in connection with the hobby and still have gone to prison.

If anyone doubts that what I am doing with Brent and other hobbyists who I have represented is a net positive, I'd invite you to call the FBI agent who has run all of these cases and investigations and ask him if he is happy that I am representing Brent. And if it's good enough for the FBI agent who is helping to prosecute these cases, I'd hope that it would be good enough for you. If not, it won't be the first time someone was unhappy with who I am representing. But helping to put Mastro et al. in jail didn't accomplish enough to stop fraud and make fraud victims whole; in this way, at least something positive is being done.

WOW, just wow. Kinda like a hard kick right to the nards.

I respect what you are trying to do. I really wish you were on the other side of history because what your client has done for 15 years is just shameful.

You have railed against what he has done, because you know, you know. This isn't just something that happened ooooooppppps ie. This was a methodical crime for 15 years of doctoring cards and identifying which ones would be better for their criminal activity, rinse and repeat. That's the grossness of it all. Just a complete dick with a complete disrespect for the law, your client Brent Mastro

I wish you were on the side of the collector instead mr. get rich quick schemer Brent Mastro. That's all he is my handsome friend, common criminal. Nothing special. So, good luck to you in your endeavors. To Brent Mastro, not so much.

perezfan · #28 07-22-2019, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I'm I the only one on this board that places a lot of fault on PSA in regards to all this mess???

Not Criminal....Making a Lot of Mistakes by not catching Obvious Alterations which according to their grading requirements are not supposed to get a number grade in holder.

What is PSA's purpose in the industry ????

I�ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

Regardless... thanks to Jeff for coming on to explain and clarify. The fact that PWCC has acknowledged the alterations and misrepresentations is a good start. So are the refunds (which I have a hunch are due to some sound legal counsel). Hopefully this case can transpire in such a way that tenets and conservation never become the new �norm�. It will be an interesting next few months.

Johnny630 · #29 07-22-2019, 05:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I�ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

Regardless... thanks to Jeff for coming on to explain and clarify. The fact that PWCC has acknowledged the alterations and misrepresentations is a good start. So are the refunds (which I have a hunch are due to some sound legal counsel). Hopefully this case can transpire in such a way that tenets and conservation never become the new �norm�. It will be an interesting next few months.

Agree Sir. I'm also very thankful for Jeffrey's response. Class Act

ruth-gehrig · #30 07-22-2019, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

Agree Sir. I'm also very thankful for Jeffrey's response. Class Act

Why wouldn't or shouldn't he reply? He's being paid by Brent to do damage control!

drcy · #31 07-22-2019, 05:56 PM

One note is that everyone deserves a good defense attorney no matter who they are-- even El Chapo and Jeffrey Dahmer. Saying otherwise is to say all charges are always correct, one side gets lawyers and the other does not, and we can/should determine guilt even before a trial. Everyone also deserves a competent physician when sick or injured-- including those who, unlike Brent, actually have been convicted and are in prison.

If Jeffrey L., or any other defense lawyer, serves as a lawyer for PWCC, El Chapo, Charles Manson or Bernie Madoff, there is absolutely nothing wrong about that.

And, no, I'm not equating PWCC with Jeffrey Dahmer and Charles Mason

CrackaJackKid · #32 07-22-2019, 05:57 PM

After all that bashing time after time and now you�re representing him? Am I in the twilight zone?!?!?. 🤦*♂️

calvindog · #33 07-22-2019, 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ruth-gehrig

Why wouldn't or shouldn't he reply? He's being paid by Brent to do damage control!

Actually, Brent is unaware that I'm even posting here today. I don't have to provide a single iota of information to the people here -- Brent's issues are with the government first and foremost. I'm posting because I think it's the right thing to do and I'd like to clean up as much of this mess as possible and provide some clarity. I've helped the feds on any number of hobby fraud cases and will continue to do so. I've successfully sued Mastro and Allen and collected hundreds of thousands of dollars from them and their co-conspirators whereas the government collected $0 in restitution from them. I'm hardly coming on here and spinning some bullshit to help Brent out.

Exhibitman · #34 07-22-2019, 06:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I’ve been saying since Day One, that PSA is the far greater evil in all of this. Their ineptitude (or whatever else is revealed) is much further reaching and enduring than PWCC. Not surprised, but very sad to hear further confirmation of their lack of remorse and failure to cooperate. I guess they really think this will all magically just go away.

PSA is worse than useless. Greedy, arrogant and inept are the politer terms I can use to describe them. But there are too many people with too much money at risk for PSA to be put out of business by anything short of a criminal conviction, and they know it, so they will never step up and do the right thing for the consumers who relied on their skills and guarantee because they don't have to. They're the Juggernaut, bitches!

I think I'll pass on the PSA slabs next week...sure gonna make my carry-on lighter going home from the show.

Den*nis O*Brien · #35 07-22-2019, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

That Attorney Lichtman would hitch his wagon to Brentsie and Betsie. He has demonstrated, over the years, that he is a serious collector with nice "Stuff". He could well be a victim of the antics PWCC is being accused of. Even if he was approached by those two I believe that every attorney has the option of saying "No Thanks"......or in this case "Your joking ...right?" I will ad that the only contact I have ever had with him was visiting his Gallery....Nice "Stuff".
While every defendant is entitled to a competent representation I will be shocked and dismayed if a notable board member fills that role.
Dennis O'Brien in Wisconsin

toledo_mudhen · #36 07-23-2019, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportscardpete

This board has a riot mentality. I am kind of surprised that one random comment can spur this much excitement without any facts. Unless I am missing something - is nimble tortoise a reputable source?

We should probably hold off on judging until there are concrete facts.

+1

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