Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc.

1952boyntoncollector · #1 07-31-2019, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

As much as I agree with your sentiment about vintage cards I think they have to be destroyed or they will likely wind up being sold dishonestly again somewhere down the line. Of course that may wind up increasing the value of the remaining cards which is also weird to think about.

If these cards are now agreed to be authentic, you can do what they do to 'cards' in Vegas Casinos.....hole punch in them.....thus they still are authentic...and you can have a 'scandal' card with no chance of fixing it..

Mark17 · #2 07-31-2019, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

If these cards are now agreed to be authentic, you can do what they do to 'cards' in Vegas Casinos.....hole punch in them.....thus they still are authentic...and you can have a 'scandal' card with no chance of fixing it..

When you say "agreed to be authentic," who would be the authority to make this conclusion for everyone? The Supreme Court? And the idea of destroying or defacing assets that have been "enhanced"... under what authority would that occur?

Aside from investment value, the reason collectors prefer nicer looking cards to beaters is their visual appeal. So, suppose I want to frame some of my 1963-67 Twins cards for display in my house. I see that a few have some discoloring on the borders, so I clean them a bit. One card has a ragged edge so I trim it straight. Nothing nefarious - they are my cards and I want them to display well.

Then one unfortunate day, an elephant sits on me (my worst recurring nightmare) and my assets are sold, without anyone knowing they've been altered.

Is the suggestion that as soon as I alter one of my assets, I must also stamp it or punch a hole in it? Or that I should make it clear in my will that upon my death, certain of my assets should be stamped, punched, or destroyed?

I'm not understanding questions regarding the higher authority concepts. Being a live and let live libertarian that's nothing new for me. But from a legal or implementation standpoint.... how can assets be prohibited from being altered, bought, and sold, if there is no fraud/criminal intent involved, and how can someone with an altered asset be made to stamp or hole punch it?

I'm sure I'll get reams of disagreement on this, but I think the problem here is with crimes of fraud, misrepresentation, etc, being perpetrated to artificially inflate sales revenues for those involved with the scheme, and NOT with the inanimate assets themselves.

Cards don't commit fraud; people do.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #3 07-31-2019, 06:15 PM

Really? The cards in question are evidence in an ongoing investigation of criminal fraud. Fraud is a crime of intent. There is no intent in your example, other than maybe the elephant

Some of these concepts have been explained so many times in the scandal threads it's hard to believe we're still trying to communicate them.

Mark17 · #4 07-31-2019, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Really? The cards in question are evidence in an ongoing investigation of criminal fraud. Fraud is a crime of intent. There is no intent in your example, other than maybe the elephant

Some of these concepts have been explained so many times in the scandal threads it's hard to believe we're still trying to communicate them.

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #5 07-31-2019, 06:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

Please, I understand the concepts and am not having a hard time with all you smart people trying to communicate them to idiots like me.

I think we agree it's a case of fraud and the cards are evidence of that crime. The perpetrators, hopefully, will have to answer to charges over this. But I don't get why the cards then have to be destroyed or severely damaged. The cards, if otherwise genuine, still may have considerable value.

Under your scenario, since Mastro has admitted the alteration and been found guilty, the Gretzky Wagner needs to be destroyed, stamped, or hole punched, and I really don't see any point in that. More importantly, I don't see under what authority that could be made to happen.

If you understand then what was the point of your irrelevant elephant example?

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

Mark17 · #6 07-31-2019, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Putting that aside who gets them? The criminals who sold them fraudulently? If the purchaser was made whole, and the criminals don't get to keep their handiwork what do YOU propose is done with them?

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #7 07-31-2019, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't know. I think Rachel said it best.

But I don't think that destroying the Gretzky Wagner, or other valuable altered cards, is the solution.

The situation is a mess. I hope the solution does not end up creating a bigger mess. Let's focus on stopping the criminals, not destroying old and rare baseball cards.

Stop bringing up the Gretzky Wagner until it's evidence in an investigation. It is privately owned, and the owner is apparently happy. If he wanted to pursue remedy THEN it would be a valid comparison.

You haven't answered the question. Who gets the cards?

JollyElm · #8 07-31-2019, 06:17 PM

Pardon the interruption...but will the OP finally fix the title of the thread????!!!! I keep waiting, but it's been days!!!! Isn't the guy's name Darren Rovell??? Why does it read "Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc."?????????? It's driving me bonkers!!!!!

Aquarian Sports Cards · #9 07-31-2019, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JollyElm

Pardon the interruption...but will the OP finally fix the title of the thread????!!!! I keep waiting, but it's been days!!!! Isn't the guy's name Darren Rovell??? Why does it read "Darren's Rovell take on PWCC, etc."?????????? It's driving me bonkers!!!!!

It's like Ruth's Chris Steakhouse

1952boyntoncollector · #10 08-01-2019, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark17

When you say "agreed to be authentic," who would be the authority to make this conclusion for everyone? The Supreme Court? And the idea of destroying or defacing assets that have been "enhanced"... under what authority would that occur?

Cards don't commit fraud; people do.

'

agreed to be authentic isnt so hard to do. Nothing is 100%, but but same as saying agreed to be a real PSA 3.. can always argue

I would think when the questioned cards are looked if, if they are to say whether they are deemed trimmed etc, a decision on authenticity can also be determined

Once a hole punch is through these cards there no issues of cards being re-holdered to hide its past......the scarlet hole punch will be there forever.......

Johnny630 · #11 08-01-2019, 09:39 AM

It doesn’t look like anyone at the National Cares About this .....
The Beat will go on as I’ve said for the past 6 months to many PEOPLE Or STEAK-HOLDERS Are Maning Money Off PSA OPINION SLABBED CARDS With GRADES ALTERED OR NOT. They are dealers, auction houses, eBay sellers, card doctors, flippers and collectors alike who buy NB Opinion with the assumption they will be worth more then when they sell. People do not wanna be told their cards are altered in PSA holders....the blind eye has been turned again just as before I don’t know why I got my hopes up that something positive will happen....I still have a little faith and hope left that it will but it’s going Down everyday watching the sheeple at the Newport Beach Line....

Don’t be a Sucker

Peter_Spaeth · #12 08-01-2019, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

It doesn�t look like anyone at the National Cares About this .....
The Beat will go on as I�ve said for the past 6 months to many PEOPLE Or STEAK-HOLDERS Are Maning Money Off PSA OPINION SLABBED CARDS With GRADES ALTERED OR NOT. They are dealers, auction houses, eBay sellers, card doctors, flippers and collectors alike who buy NB Opinion with the assumption they will be worth more then when they sell. People do not wanna be told their cards are altered in PSA holders....the blind eye has been turned again just as before I don�t know why I got my hopes up that something positive will happen....I still have a little faith and hope left that it will but it�s going Down everyday watching the sheeple at the Newport Beach Line....

Don�t be a Sucker

It's simple John. Too many people have too much money tied up in this. Therefore, they will ignore that the emperor has no clothes.

As to PSA, in my opinion the only thing that genuinely could have an impact would be irrefutable evidence of corruption. And even then, maybe not.

Johnny630 · #13 08-01-2019, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's simple John. Too many people have too much money tied up in this. Therefore, they will ignore that the emperor has no clothes.

As to PSA, in my opinion the only thing that genuinely could have an impact would be irrefutable evidence of corruption. And even then, maybe not.

It�s really a shame Peter........

steve B · #14 08-01-2019, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

and you can have a 'scandal' card with no chance of fixing it..

No chance you say...

1952boyntoncollector · #15 08-01-2019, 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

No chance you say...

Well show me a flipped card turned for a big profit that had a hole punch in it...when that happens let me know.......

barrysloate · #16 08-01-2019, 02:03 PM

Here's the irony: if the TPG's were able to upgrade with technology that could detect every alteration, so many of the cards they graded over the years would be found to be doctored. And the refunds their clients would demand would bankrupt all of them.

So what is the incentive to implement something that will put them out of business?

benjulmag · #17 08-01-2019, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's the irony: if the TPG's were able to upgrade with technology that could detect every alteration, so many of the cards they graded over the years would be found to be doctored. And the refunds their clients would demand would bankrupt all of them.

So what is the incentive to implement something that will put them out of business?

PSA would have no incentive. SGC, I'm not sure, as with it they could probably bankrupt PSA if the result is a flood of customers invoking the grading guaranty, not to mention it would be great advertising fodder if it shows their grading services to be superior to PSA's.

But what's to stop a new TPG entrant? It would certainly be different than anything that currently exists and has the potential to be very profitable.

CMIZ5290 · #18 08-01-2019, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA would have no incentive. SGC, I'm not sure, as with it they could probably bankrupt PSA if the result is a flood of customers invoking the grading guaranty, not to mention it would be great advertising fodder if it shows their grading services to be superior to PSA's.

But what's to stop a new TPG entrant? It would certainly be different than anything that currently exists and has the potential to be very profitable.

The odds of PSA going bankrupt are slim to none.....And slim just left the station

BeanTown · #19 08-04-2019, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

The odds of PSA going bankrupt are slim to none.....And slim just left the station

I would think that the TPGs all have some kind of insurance, to cover themselves if something like this happened.

Wouldn't surprise me 5-10 ten years from now, that people would think something is wrong with a card if its in an old TPG holder where it was graded by a human. Let new technology grade it with consistent standards, and let the new registry game begin.

Its like trying to sell a raw card now, where someone thinks its bad since not Blessed by a TPG. If/when I consign a card to sell, Ill use the best TPG at that time. Hopefully a new company comes into the grading arena, and raises the bar.

barrysloate · #20 08-01-2019, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

PSA would have no incentive. SGC, I'm not sure, as with it they could probably bankrupt PSA if the result is a flood of customers invoking the grading guaranty, not to mention it would be great advertising fodder if it shows their grading services to be superior to PSA's.

But what's to stop a new TPG entrant? It would certainly be different than anything that currently exists and has the potential to be very profitable.

Wouldn't that be a hoot- a new TPG entering the market with state of the art technology and exposing all of the bad cards of its competitors. Now that is something I would like to see.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #21 08-01-2019, 06:37 PM

I was actually approached about joining a grading start up about two weeks before this scandal broke. I turned it down due to the conflict of interest and concern about the company having enough money for the initial huge marketing push that would be necessary.

I had to rethink my initial response long and hard after the scandal broke, but if I changed careers again my wife would kill me, and I don't see how you can run an auction and be a party involved with a grading company.

chalupacollects · #22 08-02-2019, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by barrysloate

Here's the irony: if the TPG's were able to upgrade with technology that could detect every alteration, so many of the cards they graded over the years would be found to be doctored. And the refunds their clients would demand would bankrupt all of them.

So what is the incentive to implement something that will put them out of business?

Well a new competitor TPG with a strong product wouldn't mind doing it...

steve B · #23 08-02-2019, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

Well show me a flipped card turned for a big profit that had a hole punch in it...when that happens let me know.......

Holes can be filled. We already know recoloring can be done that PSA can't detect in their 30 seconds of "effort"

1952boyntoncollector · #24 08-02-2019, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Holes can be filled. We already know recoloring can be done that PSA can't detect in their 30 seconds of "effort"

show me one card that gets 'outed' from the other forum where a card with a hole punch sized hole got a PSA numeric grade.

steve B · #25 08-03-2019, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

show me one card that gets 'outed' from the other forum where a card with a hole punch sized hole got a PSA numeric grade.

Jake, just let go of the endless pointless arguments.

No holes have been punched yet, to there's no hole punched card for the doctors to fill in.

And yes, no lawsuits yet either.

You almost make me want to hole punch a card, fix it and send it to PSA, but that would be what I like to call "bad" so I won't do it.
Just rest assured that it's entirely possible to do.

1952boyntoncollector · #26 08-03-2019, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by steve B

Jake, just let go of the endless pointless arguments.

No holes have been punched yet, to there's no hole punched card for the doctors to fill in.

And yes, no lawsuits yet either.

You almost make me want to hole punch a card, fix it and send it to PSA, but that would be what I like to call "bad" so I won't do it.
Just rest assured that it's entirely possible to do.

Still, something entirely possible that has never occurred versus the 1000s of examples that have passed grading, ill take my chances on the 'entirely possible' angle I assume thats in the everything is possible category

A little pot calling the kettle black on saying an argument is pointless but then arguing against it.

However, i can see a new grading company promising to DOUBLE the money on any card that would be deemed altered. I can see those slabs being sought after more than the no guarantee ones and the soft guarantee ones

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