SPORTS CARD RADIO (anonymus PSA "insider")

Peter_Spaeth · #1 08-15-2019, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

In 1996 Daniel Desmond said he had restored thousands of cards in the VCBC 7 article he was quoted in. We know he is still doing it today, a mere 23 years later.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=270622

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=253875
.

And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.

CuriousGeorge · #2 08-15-2019, 11:32 AM

I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And why not, it's steady work and the pay is good, and there seems to be no risk.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 08-15-2019, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I would think anyone who has the FBI knocking on their door would disagree with that statement and say there is risk. Now I know no one has been arrested yet, no civil lawsuits or death sentences, but I suspect having the FBI investigating your life cannot be pleasant.

If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.

ullmandds · #4 08-15-2019, 12:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peter_spaeth

if i had made millions doctoring cards, i wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience.

i beg to differ!

CuriousGeorge · #5 08-15-2019, 12:59 PM

I�m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don�t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I�m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

If I had made millions doctoring cards, I wouldn't find paying a little restitution a huge inconvenience. We'll see if it ends up being any more than that. And most of these guys are smart enough to have stayed under the radar anyhow. I doubt anyone is knocking on their doors.

I would love to be wrong about this, of course. They all should be punished severely. But it's baseball cards.

Leon · #6 08-15-2019, 01:19 PM

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

CuriousGeorge · #7 08-15-2019, 01:26 PM

But Leon, aren�t we awfully early in this for the FBI to be meting out punishment already? I know some think civil lawsuits should have happened already but as another poster articulately said, these things take time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

Leon · #8 08-15-2019, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

But Leon, aren�t we awfully early in this for the FBI to be meting out punishment already? I know some think civil lawsuits should have happened already but as another poster articulately said, these things take time.

It wouldn't surprise me if we are several years away from closure. Who knows? I doubt this is a sprint nor should it be.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #9 08-15-2019, 02:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

I don't know about that. If I were a betting person I would say restitution might come into play in the final punishment (if there is any). But then again, what do I know? I am just a layperson running a chatboard.

When it came to any kind of sentencing I think it would certainly be a mitigating factor. If Mastro and Allen had spent the months leading up to trial trying to make people whole I think their sentencing would've gone differently. Of course I too, am no lawyer.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 08-15-2019, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge

I’m not as familiar with the FBI as an attorney like you may be, but they don’t strike me as an organization set up to play the role of mediator and work nicely to help get some restitution back for people. In fact Mastro and Allen went to jail and never even had to pay a penny back! I’m kind of thinking there has to be more to this but what do I know?

I never suggested the FBI was playing mediator. I am just speculating that at the end of the day a few card doctors might be paying back some restitution, perhaps even of their own accord on the advice of counsel, but I am skeptical that any will end up serving time.

samosa4u · #11 08-15-2019, 11:40 AM

On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 08-15-2019, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samosa4u

On pg 47 of the article, DD states that "the sale of restored cards, priced and sold as restored cards could create a whole new market. It would give the average collector a chance to own the high end cards in beautiful condition for a fraction of the normal cost, cards that they could never otherwise afford."

The problem with this is that any card that gets restored is not going to be sold as a restored card, nor will it be priced as a restored card.

On the same page, DD also said that PSA was thinking of getting him to work as a consultant for them, but in the end it just didn't work out. Well, I think that would have been a great idea. PSA should have worked with all the best card doctors in the hobby. It would only make them better at detecting restorations.

At least one card doctor graded for PSA for a while, some time ago.

drcy · #13 08-15-2019, 12:00 PM

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

perezfan · #14 08-15-2019, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.

drcy · #15 08-15-2019, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by perezfan

I hope you're right...

But it will never happen if PSA is still ruling the roost in the TPG world. A new better company will need to emerge, to render PSA (and it's tens of thousands of mis-graded cards) obsolete. PSA would NEVER take the responsibility to do so themselves, as evidenced by recent statements from Sloan and Orlando.

Obviously a big "ask", but hope it can happen.

I know I'm right. How TPAs or whomever uses the technology and methods is neither here nor there to me. There's also no reason it has to be a commercial endevor-- no need to define this issue in terms of commerce, companies and market share. It's like saying "Which company is going to own carbon dating?" No one owns carbon dating. It's a scientific method written about in textbooks, taught in physics classes and used all over the world.

Also, many authentication tools and methods are inexpensive and many people, and collectors, them. Anyone who examines their card with a $6 black light or $10 handheld microscope can attest to this. There will be scientific tools, some expensive and some not, but it's mostly about knowledge.

Also, people have to differenciate between grading and identifying altereations. Grading and grading critereon are subjective and no AI or compupter program can 'solve' that. Identying altereations on the other hand is scientific, and technology can be applied there.

perezfan · #16 08-15-2019, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

I know I'm right. How TPAs or whomever uses the technology and methods is neither here nor there to me. There's also no reason it has to be a commercial endevor-- no need to define this issue in terms of commerce, companies and market share. It's like saying "Which company is going to own carbon dating?" No one owns carbon dating. It's a scientific method written about in textbooks, taught in physics classes and used all over the world.

Also, many authentication tools and methods are inexpensive and many people, and collectors, them. Anyone who examines their card with a $6 black light or $10 handheld microscope can attest to this. There will be scientific tools, some expensive and some not, but it's mostly about knowledge.

Also, people have to differenciate between grading and identifying altereations. Grading and grading critereon are subjective and no AI or compupter program can 'solve' that. Identying altereations on the other hand is scientific, and technology can be applied there.

I guess we're talking about 2 different things, then...

Most collectors (the people feeding endless sums of money to PSA) seem to want a 3rd party to "validate" their cards. They view the self-appointed experts as "The Voice of God", and get an ego boost, when their card comes back with a highly-assigned grade (even if it's altered).

I'm guessing the use of technology (or any science for that matter) won't change that mindset.... regardless of how easy the identification techniques become. PSA won't ever admit to their mistakes... which involve multi-thousands of graded cards. So if it then becomes up to the collector to determine what is legitimate and what's not, I honestly think most of these people won't even want to know the truth... especially those who are deeply invested and in love with PSA. A pretty sad state of affairs.

benjulmag · #17 08-15-2019, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcy

I firmly believe that, in the future and perhaps near future, all cards from now and retroactively will be able to be identified-- and the hobby and collectors will be able to deal with that.

The idea that altered cards will remain undetected (except for those who don't want them examined) is false.

Though, duly note that there have been instances where cards have been restored, represented and graded as such. With the means to identify all altered cards, this may be a wave of the future.

I strongly agree with this. If/when this happens, whatever upheavals the hobby has endured to date IMO will pale in comparison to the upheaval lurking when it is shown that the great majority of high grade vintage cards have been altered.

IMO those of us who traveled the show circuit in the 60's, 70's and early '80's know this to be the case, as well as those who possess the simple common sense to know that cards over a century old distributed in tobacco and candy packages and handled could not possibly have survived in nrmt-mt or better condition in anything close to the numbers that exist today.

What I will be curious to see is the legal consequence to PSA when a lot of registry people discover that the value of their holdings have been significantly reduced. I would not be surprised to see significant civil litigation against PSA predicated on their business model being an absurdity - the notion that a visual examination lasting a very short time conducted in many instances by inexperienced graders can possibly detect sophisticated card doctoring. Assuming the representations PSA were making as to the capabilities of the services it was selling are not found to have been fraudulently made, we might see a test legal case of when stupidity has reached such a level that as a matter of law it is deemed to be impossible not to have been fraudulently made.

Peter_Spaeth · #18 08-15-2019, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by benjulmag

I strongly agree with this. If/when this happens, whatever upheavals the hobby has endured to date IMO will pale in comparison to the upheaval lurking when it is shown that the great majority of high grade vintage cards have been altered.

IMO those of us who traveled the show circuit in the 60's, 70's and early '80's know this to be the case, as well as those who possess the simple common sense to know that cards over a century old distributed in tobacco and candy packages and handled could not possibly have survived in nrmt-mt or better condition in anything close to the numbers that exist today.

What I will be curious to see is the legal consequence to PSA when a lot of registry people discover that the value of their holdings have been significantly reduced. I would not be surprised to see significant civil litigation against PSA predicated on their business model being an absurdity - the notion that a visual examination lasting a very short time conducted in many instances by inexperienced graders can possibly detect sophisticated card doctoring. Assuming the representations PSA were making as to the capabilities of the services it was selling are not found to have been fraudulently made, we might see a test legal case of when stupidity has reached such a level that as a matter of law it is deemed to be impossible not to have been fraudulently made.

And yet huge numbers of sophisticated collectors believed and believe it. How stupid and implausible could it really have been if that was and is the case?

benjulmag · #19 08-15-2019, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And yet huge numbers of sophisticated collectors believed and believe it. How stupid and implausible could it really have been if that was and is the case?

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card. So we do not know what they believed. And I suspect many of those who did take the time to think about it probably assumed PSA applied methods a bit more sophisticated and time consuming then in fact they did. Then there are those overtaken by suspended disbelief -- they wanted what they were told to be true so they bought into it.

I also question how sophisticated many of these people are.

Whatever the case, when many people find they have lost large sums of money they are going to be looking for someone to blame. And I think PSA will be held to a higher standard of expertise than the customers they are selling to.

When I spoke to the FBI at the National they seemed well aware as to the limitations of the PSA business model, and I'll be curious to see if one of the results of this situation is that PSA will add some qualifying language as to the limitations of what they can detect.

EDITED to add that I am not saying litigation against PSA will be successful. And as has been noted before, people who buy the slab and not the card to some degree have made their own bed. But I would not be surprised if it gets messy and there is litigation.

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