Gone with the stain

pokerplyr80 · #1 09-03-2019, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Try asking him for a list of cards he has worked on and for whom, and see just how transparent he is. There's no meaningful disclosure, just some generalities which are essentially advertisements for his services. At best he is knowingly enabling deception. And touting it.

I would hope that no business would just hand over customer information without a court order. It has nothing to do with transparency, some people just value their privacy. Even if they aren't breaking any laws or committing fraud.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 09-03-2019, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I would hope that no business would just hand over customer information without a court order. It has nothing to do with transparency, some people just value their privacy. Even if they aren't breaking any laws or committing fraud.

Of course they value their privacy in this context, they don't want people to know they're selling doctored cards that they snuck past the TPGs. How many cards have you ever seen for sale where someone said, Dick Towle worked on this card and here's what he did?

PS I don't really expect Towle to disclose his client list, it's more a rhetorical point that he's knowingly assisting people in deception so I give him no credit at all for his supposed transparency.

pokerplyr80 · #3 09-03-2019, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course they value their privacy in this context, they don't want people to know they're selling doctored cards that they snuck past the TPGs. How many cards have you ever seen for sale where someone said, Dick Towle worked on this card and here's what he did?

PS I don't really expect Towle to disclose his client list, it's more a rhetorical point that he's knowingly assisting people in deception.

I don't disagree with any of the points you've made. My point was that any business should deny a request to hand over customer lists or transaction history. Regardless of the service or product they provide.

As for gone with the stain they definitely operate in a gray area. I've never used their services. But as others have noted at least they're up front and honest about what they do, even if some of their clients aren't.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 09-03-2019, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

I don't disagree with any of the points you've made. My point was that any business should deny a request to hand over customer lists or transaction history. Regardless of the service or product they provide.

As for gone with the stain they definitely operate in a gray area. I've never used their services. But as others have noted at least they're up front and honest about what they do, even if some of their clients aren't.

At some point in my estimation it's wrong to knowingly enable people committing fraud, even if you're not committing fraud yourself. And yes I am sure that if we were to fully explore this there would be nuances and gray areas.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #5 09-03-2019, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

At some point in my estimation it's wrong to knowingly enable people committing fraud, even if you're not committing fraud yourself. And yes I am sure that if we were to fully explore this there would be nuances and gray areas.

It's an issue I struggle with. Do I sell an altered card clearly stating it's altered? Maybe doing that is ethical, but I can't know what the next guy down the line is planning. Am I enabling the cheaters? Basically for now I'm giving consignors back their altered cards unless they're already correctly slabbed. That's not a perfect solution either but it's where I'm at.

vintagetoppsguy · #6 09-03-2019, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

...I can't know what the next guy down the line is planning.

If you're selling an altered card and describing it as such, then kudos to you. But you can't worry about the next guy down the line. You're not responsible for their actions.

It would be no different if you were selling an Ex/Mt card as such and the buyer micro-trims it and sells it as NM-MT. Or if you were selling a VG card with minor paper loss on the front (that would otherwise grade NM) and the buyer recolors the paper loss area and sells in as NM.

You can only control your actions, not others. Don't sweat it. You're doing the right thing.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #7 09-03-2019, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you're selling an altered card and describing it as such, then kudos to you. But you can't worry about the next guy down the line. You're not responsible for their actions.

It would be no different if you were selling an Ex/Mt card as such and the buyer micro-trims it and sells it as NM-MT. Or if you were selling a VG card with minor paper loss on the front (that would otherwise grade NM) and the buyer recolors the paper loss area and sells in as NM.

You can only control your actions, not others. Don't sweat it. You're doing the right thing.

Thanks all for your thoughts. While I realize I'm not responsible for the next guy I do feel that auction houses and dealers should be stewards of the hobby in general. Call it enlightened self-interest, but if every seller turns out to be a piece of shit, the hobby won't last long. But if there are enough of us (and I'm taking liberties including myself in the group of auction houses and dealers as I am very small-time) who refuse to pass these cards on, maybe we can make a difference.

Especially good points about the legit cards being sold and then altered. Hadn't looked at it from that standpoint. Obviously there's nothing I can do in those instances. I see the difference as being those cards were legit as they passed through my hands, as opposed to cards that have already been monkeyed with before they come to me.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 09-03-2019, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

It's an issue I struggle with. Do I sell an altered card clearly stating it's altered? Maybe doing that is ethical, but I can't know what the next guy down the line is planning. Am I enabling the cheaters? Basically for now I'm giving consignors back their altered cards unless they're already correctly slabbed. That's not a perfect solution either but it's where I'm at.

In a perfect world there would be a mechanism for taking the card off the market but since there isn't I think you're doing what you reasonably can. I also wouldn't have a problem if you just sold the card with a clear description. There's only so much any one person can control.

drcy · #9 09-03-2019, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In a perfect world there would be a mechanism for taking the card off the market but since there isn't I think you're doing what you reasonably can. I also wouldn't have a problem if you just sold the card with a clear description. There's only so much any one person can control.

If you are disclosing the alterations, that's what you can do.

vintagebaseballcardguy · #10 09-03-2019, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course they value their privacy in this context, they don't want people to know they're selling doctored cards that they snuck past the TPGs. How many cards have you ever seen for sale where someone said, Dick Towle worked on this card and here's what he did?

PS I don't really expect Towle to disclose his client list, it's more a rhetorical point that he's knowingly assisting people in deception so I give him no credit at all for his supposed transparency.

Maybe we could set up ole Dick with a sticker of his own. So when a prospective buyer sees the scarlet (or whatever color he might choose) Dick sticker, they know they are getting something...conserved...altered...special.

Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

KCRfan1 · #11 09-03-2019, 01:54 PM

Michael, bigbeergut, I'm still waiting for you to answer if you believe soaking a card, which some on this forum has done, is as bad as what Towle does.

So far, all you are doing is trolling.

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