Working theory: Murad T51 �number-on-front� variations

swarmee · #1 10-22-2019, 08:12 PM

Hmm; it's possible. I figured with the 1911 date on those coupons to redeem for the T6s, those would have been inserted in packs more around the time of the 2nd edition printing.

slightlyrounded · #2 10-23-2019, 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

Hmm; it's possible. I figured with the 1911 date on those coupons to redeem for the T6s, those would have been inserted in packs more around the time of the 2nd edition printing.

I've always been under the impression that T6 and T51 were issued concurrently. We know for example that the T6's came out in mid-1910 since an earlier version of the redemption coupon exists:

(a bit blurry but states at bottom College series will be ready to mail on June 1st, 1910)

If you look at other ATC coupons that share that same expiry date, there is pretty clear evidence that all were being produced no later than early 1910. For instance with the T3 premiums, here's a Turkey Red coupon:

And a Fez:

What I'm less sure of is the T51 timing - would love to see some evidence they were being issued in 1909 as commonly suggested. If they were, maybe the NOF variations were standard prior to the redemption coupons being included in cigarette packs; Then, when the T6 offer started, ATC decided to scrap the original numbering system and removed these from the T51 printing plates?

swarmee · #3 10-23-2019, 05:43 AM

It's a plausible explanation. I think the 1909 date comes from their similarity with the T206 and T205 issues.

conor912 · #4 10-23-2019, 10:01 AM

I don�t have a whole lot to offer to the theory, but wanted to chime in with some love for Murads. Some of the most visually appealing and under rated cards in the hobby, IMO.

lampertb · #5 12-23-2024, 02:18 PM

Reviving this old thread with some post-pandemic questions:
1) What do you think the value today of the #14 (NOF) Williams card would be?
2) The only population figures that I can find separating the Murad cards into NOF, 1st series, and 2nd series pops is years old; what's the best way to go about estimating how many of each are still in existence for Williams?

Pat R · #6 12-23-2024, 04:54 PM

The shipping of the Murad College series began in April 1910 and the series was discontinued in December 1911.

Murad Colledge series.jpg

Mikan99 · #7 12-23-2024, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

The shipping of the Murad College series began in April 1910 and the series was discontinued in December 1911.

Attachment 644707

I believe the April 1910 date refers to the T6 Murad College series (larger size cards). There are two versions of the T6 redemption card and the one shown is the revised version (with mail out date), while the original T6 redemption card just had the offer expiry date.

Given the above, and that the Murad T51 came before the T6, the date for T51 cards is generally thought to be 1909.

We can also be fairly sure that the T51 cards from Series 1 that have the number (e,g Williams #14 basketball card) came before the Series 1 without numbers. This comes down to the fact that the Series 1 cards are the only ones to have a numbered version. No other series in the set have a number version.

Keen to hear other thoughts on this.

https://www.projectnaismith.com/guide-prewar-cards

slightlyrounded · #8 12-24-2024, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pat R

The shipping of the Murad College series began in April 1910 and the series was discontinued in December 1911.

Attachment 644707

I believe 1st series began packing June 5th, 1909. 1st series, Second edition began shipping Sept 24th, 2010.

Page 8 of the full American Lithographic Ledger clearly shows this. Unfortunately no mention of the NOFs within the document. (Side note, what an AMAZING document).

Number-on-front (NOFs) were quite obviously the first thing to be printed (early 1909) but then the number was knocked off and they continued printing them. My theory continues to be the coupons asked for the T6 premiums to be ordered by 'number' (alphabetical), but the differently numbered t51s were causing confusion OR at least the ATC thought they would once inserted.

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