PWCC Auction Ending Tonight - Interesting Results

Leon · #1 11-12-2019, 08:06 AM

Well said, Ryan.
There is no way to not buy TPG graded cards if you are in our space and want really nice cards. So, I am just collecting things I am comfortable are not fraudulent. That means very few high grade pre war cards (never had many but really pass on them now.) will be getting my bids. When I see cards with micro borders in TPG holders I chuckle. Collect what you like and be careful, especially of cards in TPG holders.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

Jack, I appreciate the kind works (albeit overstated/misguided!).

I am not happy with PWCC or PSA, among others (PSA actually disgusts me most of all). And while I want neither to "go down", I do want them to make changes so that the hobby is more honest and accurate. Nobody changes without a catalyst. Perhaps these message boards and the awesome work that BODA is doing will be that catalyst; perhaps it will be this ongoing FBI investigation we hear about from time-to-time; perhaps it will be neither of these, but will be something else; or maybe there will be no changes because no catalyst is sufficient to force change. Who knows. All I know at this time is what I can control - my buying habits. And if enough of us speak with our wallets, perhaps we can collectively be a catalyst. So why not try?

I do think collectors' buying and selling habits are having a tangible effect on PWCC, at least with respect to pre-1920 vintage. I have found their last 3-4 auctions to be weak on 1920 and older, vintage offerings (especially T206), and I find the selling prices for the items they have offered to be weak. I believe this could be because less people are consigning with them and less people are bidding with them; I also think less people are shilling.

Please understand that I want very badly to start bidding with PWCC again -- historically they have great stuff and have been one of the best AHs for the cards I collect. But I will not bid with them until I am satisfied that they are more honest. And, I encourage everyone to act similarly toward anyone you believe has had a material role in perpetuating/encouraging the fraud and crime now being exposed . That is the least I/we can do.

Regarding PSA -- well that's a whole different story. I don't know how one collects and boycotts PSA. If I did that, I would have to pass on too many items, and considering that BVG is dogshit with vintage (yes, I said that -- Ryan Hotchkiss), and SGC has its skeletons and issues too, I might as well "hang'em up" if I cease collecting cards that happen to reside in PSA flips. And I don't want to give up collecting. I recognize that maybe that makes me a hypocrite. I struggle with this one.

DeanH3 · #2 11-12-2019, 11:07 AM

+1 with the well said Ryan. In order to continue collecting what I like, TPG has to be an option. I do believe there are a ton of unaltered cards out there to be had. I know my preference have morphed some. Not only the meteoric rise in prices on nice mid-grade, but this recent scandal has caused me to accept some more flaws I may not have in the past. Still lovin the nice fat bordered T206's like Leon's above.

Peter_Spaeth · #3 11-12-2019, 01:11 PM

The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.

perezfan · #4 11-12-2019, 02:17 PM

Yup.... Bad cards in PSA slabs are now everywhere. PWCC is a very small chunk of it.

Goudey77 · #5 11-12-2019, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.

Great point Peter.
Not to mention all the card show dealers and BST forums. I imagine it's under the radar widespread and the best solution is to reset every slab out there.
Start a new TPG and do away with BGS, SGC and PSA like the days of GAI and PRO.

In 30 years we can rinse and repeat once the new process gets dirty again.

Goudey77 · #6 11-12-2019, 02:33 PM

I still think PWCC comes out of this stronger than ever. If the market is slowing overall then I get it. To say trend is isolated to PWCC would be too early to say.
I know there is a lot of focus and attention towards PWCC since they appear to be the most fluid and ground breaking AH service around. Go ahead bash on my opinion it's ok.

Snapolit1 · #7 12-07-2019, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

I still think PWCC comes out of this stronger than ever. If the market is slowing overall then I get it. To say trend is isolated to PWCC would be too early to say.
I know there is a lot of focus and attention towards PWCC since they appear to be the most fluid and ground breaking AH service around. Go ahead bash on my opinion it's ok.

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

bnorth · #8 12-07-2019, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

Your landlord analogy is perfect here. I know a few "Slum Lords" and they do 100% always come out on top. They have been making WAY more for a very long time because of the way they do business. The getting caught is just a minor bump in the big picture. In reality the landlords have it harder because they don't have a bunch of morons and idiots making excuses for them. Strangely they do have morons and idiots lining up to do business with them even though they know what they are getting into.

One other great thing with the scammers in cards is their "friends". I noticed at first everyone hated the card doctors. Then when names started coming out many of the same people switched their hate to PSA. Guess it sucks when you find out your "friend" is a bad guy.

perezfan · #9 12-07-2019, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

I agree with this. There's no shortage of other outlets who feature the same exact cards, with far less margin for error. And while PWCC may survive this (which remains to be seen, based on the severity of punishment from LE), I also believe their best days are behind them.

Peter_Spaeth · #10 12-07-2019, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

If only there was one landlord ripping everyone off.

Bigdaddy · #11 12-07-2019, 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Totally disagree. That's like saying the landlord in town who is ripping everyone off and got caught is going to come out of it stronger than ever after the DA is done subpoenaing them and crawling up their ass with a microscope. I guess if past history means absolutely nothing to people buying cards they will come out stronger.
Bottom line is very few if any of the cards they are selling can't be bought elsewhere.

One big note here is that PWCC has plenty of competition in several other auction houses. They always seemed to have 'nice stuff', but maybe that was because they were enabling the doctors to bring it to market. If that distinction of having the best stuff goes away, it would be easy for folks to walk away from PWCC. There is nothing to lose. And as soon as the buyers stop buying, the consignors will stop consigning.

PSA on the other hand, has very limited competition and unless another entrant stands up or SGC really steps up their game, that won't change. People have a lot of money on the line with the PSA entombed cards, and folks would lose a lot of money by moving from PSA.

I can see the scenario where PWCC takes a big hit but PSA keeps steam-rolling right along.

Peter_Spaeth · #12 11-12-2019, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Goudey77

Great point Peter.
Not to mention all the card show dealers and BST forums. I imagine it's under the radar widespread and the best solution is to reset every slab out there.
Start a new TPG and do away with BGS, SGC and PSA like the days of GAI and PRO.

In 30 years we can rinse and repeat once the new process gets dirty again.

Yeah it only we could do a Noah's Ark thing...

Rhotchkiss · #13 11-12-2019, 03:13 PM

Yes, the hobby is a mess, and it�s hardly restricted to PWCC. But there are plenty of other threads to state and restate that obvious fact. This thread is about PWCC and their most recent auctions. Can we please keep the comments here restricted to that. Thank you

Aquarian Sports Cards · #14 11-12-2019, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The problem with boycotting PWCC only is that it doesn't solve much. There are numerous AHs and other ebay sellers whose offerings are riddled with doctored cards. Anyone who thinks PWCC is the only, or even major, outlet for the card doctors is deluding himself.

Same point if the issue is shill bidding.

Maybe, but I would maintain that there are few auction houses the size of PWCC that are actively participating in the altering of cards.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #15 12-07-2019, 09:56 PM

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