Hall of Fame voting and WWII

packs · #1 12-16-2019, 01:14 PM

You should look up Travis' history. His career tanked after the war because he was severely injured during it and received the Bronze Star.

topcat61 · #2 12-16-2019, 03:23 PM

Those Army doctors were good enough to save Travis's feet from amputation. I honestly dont understand WAR or why it would be a major importance for Hall of Fame consideration when you have 9 players on a field? I man there are a lot of Hall of Famers who played on some pretty crappy teams including the guys I mention. Much of the time those players had no choice where they played.

Anyway, Hodges came up in 1943, played 1 game and entered the Marine Corps. I still feel that Dom DiMaggio and Johnny Pesky would have gotten more consideration along with other similar players.

conor912 · #3 12-16-2019, 04:13 PM

All else being equal, had the Red Sox of the 40s won at least one ring, I think Dom would be in. Hard to make a case for Rizutto being in and not Dom other than the championships, IMO.

egri · #4 12-16-2019, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

All else being equal, had the Red Sox of the 40s won at least one ring, I think Dom would be in. Hard to make a case for Rizutto being in and not Dom other than the championships, IMO.

I agree, and it's unfortunate those teams couldn't get any pitching. In 1950, when the team scored over 1,000 runs, they had one pitcher with an ERA below 4.00 (Mel Parnell at 3.61, next lowest was Joe Dobson at 4.18).

I've always considered DiMaggio, Hodges and Travis unfairly snubbed (Lewis I'm not knowledgeable enough on to form an opinion). Hodges' candidacy was hurt indirectly by his wartime service in another way as well; while in the Marines, he took up smoking, which contributed to his fatal heart attack.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #5 12-16-2019, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by egri

I agree, and it's unfortunate those teams couldn't get any pitching. In 1950, when the team scored over 1,000 runs, they had one pitcher with an ERA below 4.00 (Mel Parnell at 3.61, next lowest was Joe Dobson at 4.18).

I've always considered DiMaggio, Hodges and Travis unfairly snubbed (Lewis I'm not knowledgeable enough on to form an opinion). Hodges' candidacy was hurt indirectly by his wartime service in another way as well; while in the Marines, he took up smoking, which contributed to his fatal heart attack.

MLB ERA in 1950 was 4.38

egri · #6 12-16-2019, 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

MLB ERA in 1950 was 4.38

And the Red Sox had an ERA of 4.88.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #7 12-16-2019, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conor912

All else being equal, had the Red Sox of the 40s won at least one ring, I think Dom would be in. Hard to make a case for Rizutto being in and not Dom other than the championships, IMO.

Rizzuto is one of the worst players in the HOF does that mean we compound the mistake?

conor912 · #8 12-16-2019, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rizzuto is one of the worst players in the HOF does that mean we compound the mistake?

You could choose to look at it that way, absolutely. But it doesn�t change the fact that we�re talking about two (arguably) equal players and one of them is in and one isn�t.

tedzan · #9 12-16-2019, 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Rizzuto is one of the worst players in the HOF does that mean we compound the mistake?

Hey Scott

Ole buddy....you cannot talk like that about my neighbor, Rizzuto. I grew up living only two blocks away from him in Hillside, NJ.

I personally knew him for many years, and you couldn't meet a nicer, friendlier person. OK, all that does not get him in the HOF.

But, another Ted said it the best. In 1984, I met Ted Williams up in Cooperstown. We had a tremendous conversation for about
an hour (actually, I did most of the listening). I told him when I was a kid, I rooted for him to hit HR's in the upper RF stands at
Yankee Stadium. He was somewhat confused, since earlier I had told Ted I was a YANKEES fan, because Rizzuto was my nearby
neighbor.
Why did I root for Ted, because as a 10-year old kid, I liked him since his name was "Theodore". Furthermore, I told him that....
"at the end of the season I knew the YANKEES would be the Champions".

Ted cracked up laughing....but then he got real serious and told me...."if Rizzuto was playing for the Red Sox in those days, they
would have been the Champions". He went on to explain this......Rizzuto was the best Lead-Off player he had ever seen. Rizzuto
would get a Hit, or Bunt, or Walk (or even get hit by a pitch). Then Steal 2nd Base, and eventually score. Ted emphasized an old
axiom in BB which says if a Lead-Off batter gets on 1st base, he will score a Run 3 out of every 4 times.

When Ted Williams was on the HOF Veterans Committee he was very instrumental in getting Rizzuto into the HOF.

Take care, my friend.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #10 12-16-2019, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey Scott

Ole buddy....you cannot talk like that about my neighbor, Rizzuto. I grew up living only two blocks away from him in Hillside, NJ.

I personally knew him for many years, and you couldn't meet a nicer, friendlier person. OK, all that does not get him in the HOF.

But, another Ted said it the best. In 1984, I met Ted Williams up in Cooperstown. We had a tremendous conversation for about
an hour (actually, I did most of the listening). I told him when I was a kid, I rooted for him to hit HR's in the upper RF stands at
Yankee Stadium. He was somewhat confused, since earlier I had told Ted I was a YANKEES fan, because Rizzuto was my nearby
neighbor.
Why did I root for Ted, because as a 10-year old kid, I liked him since his name was "Theodore". Furthermore, I told him that....
"at the end of the season I knew the YANKEES would be the Champions".

Ted cracked up laughing....but then he got real serious and told me...."if Rizzuto was playing for the Red Sox in those days, they
would have been the Champions". He went on to explain this......Rizzuto was the best Lead-Off player he had ever seen. Rizzuto
would get a Hit, or Bunt, or Walk (or even get hit by a pitch). Then Steal 2nd Base, and eventually score. Ted emphasized an old
axiom in BB which says if a Lead-Off batter gets on 1st base, he will score a Run 3 out of every 4 times.

When Ted Williams was on the HOF Veterans Committee he was very instrumental in getting Rizzuto into the HOF.

Take care, my friend.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Sorry Ted, but the other Ted was notorious for wanting EVERYONE in the hall of fame with him. I'd value the opinion of a LOT of people more than Williams. Frankly I'd take your word over Ted's lol. For my money Alvin Dark belongs in the Hall before Phil. Phil was a plus defender (but no Ozzie Smith, or even Pee Wee Reese) and only had one exceptional offensive season and several above average. Even if you give him his war years back he barely would've cleared 2000 hits.

I'm definitely one of those guys who wishes the Hall was more exclusive. Rizzuto was a very good player with flashes of greatness, but if he had played in Cleveland he wouldn't be in the Hall.

Unlike some other people here though I can agree to cordially disagree!

Happy Holidays!

Aquarian Sports Cards · #11 12-16-2019, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by topcat61

Those Army doctors were good enough to save Travis's feet from amputation. I honestly dont understand WAR or why it would be a major importance for Hall of Fame consideration when you have 9 players on a field? I man there are a lot of Hall of Famers who played on some pretty crappy teams including the guys I mention. Much of the time those players had no choice where they played.

Anyway, Hodges came up in 1943, played 1 game and entered the Marine Corps. I still feel that Dom DiMaggio and Johnny Pesky would have gotten more consideration along with other similar players.

You don't understand WAR then. Playing for a crummy team has no impact.

Oh, and Rats, look two posts above you.

topcat61 · #12 12-17-2019, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

You don't understand WAR then. Playing for a crummy team has no impact.

Oh, and Rats, look two posts above you.

I said I didn't understand WAR. Playing for crappy teams with no run support
and batting order has something to say about certain stats.

https://bellyupsports.com/2018/08/wa...8a_08ue12UbEWY
"WAR- Why it’s a Dumb Statistic", August 2018 by Bellyupsports.com

Kenny Cole · #13 12-16-2019, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

You should look up Travis' history. His career tanked after the war because he was severely injured during it and received the Bronze Star.

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

mr2686 · #14 12-16-2019, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

I like Travis, and wouldn't have a problem with him in the Hall, but Warren Spahn was also in the battle of the Bulge, sustained injuries to his feet and was shell shocked, and went on to have a hall of fame career.

Kenny Cole · #15 12-16-2019, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mr2686

I like Travis, and wouldn't have a problem with him in the Hall, but Warren Spahn was also in the battle of the Bulge, sustained injuries to his feet and was shell shocked, and went on to have a hall of fame career.

He was wounded in a foot by shrapnel while helping defend Ludendorff Bridge. Not minimizing it, but that is substantially different than almost losing both feet to frostbite IMO.

Travis was one of the "battling bastards of Bastogne." Completely surrounded, outmanned, outflanked, out of food and water, sleeping in his foxhole in the freezing temperatures. I have nothing but respect for him.

mr2686 · #16 12-16-2019, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

He was wounded in a foot by shrapnel while helping defend Ludendorff Bridge. Not minimizing it, but that is substantially different than almost losing both feet to frostbite IMO.

Travis was one of the "battling bastards of Bastogne." Completely surrounded, outmanned, outflanked, out of food and water, sleeping in his foxhole in the freezing temperatures. I have nothing but respect for him.

True, but I've also read where he almost lost a couple of toes to frostbite...again, not as bad as almost losing both feet, but it was so cold during that battle that most soldiers suffered some sort of frostbite...couldn't be helped. Regardless, I've always liked Travis but didn't know about his history in the military. Love hearing those stories.

Kenny Cole · #17 12-16-2019, 10:59 PM

I don't expect him to ever be inducted. I think that he is better, based on his actual numbers, than some SSs already in, at least offensively, but I also get that he won't be elected. Nonetheless, I really dislike the lack of respect for a guy who literally sacrificed his entire career to serve our country when called to do so. I think that entirely sucks. Overall, I think that WWII negatively affected more potential HOF players than any other conflict. The lack of consideration given to that fact is very unfortunate IMO.

packs · #18 12-17-2019, 08:12 AM

I'm really having a hard time understanding what Warren Spahn has to do with Cecil Travis. Unless Warren Spahn suffered the same exact injury and played short stop what does he have to do with anything?

topcat61 · #19 12-17-2019, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

This. Plus I have always thought it was extraordinarily unfair to penalize a player for serving his country for four years when called in the first place. Looking at Travis post WWII career and basing a decision on his numbers then is similarly unfair. He suffered severe frostbite during the Battle of the Bulge and damn near lost his feet. That he is not going to play at the same level after suffering what should have been a career ending injury is kind of a duh thing. Dinging him for that is somewhat akin to saying Gale Sayers wasn't a HOFer because he didn't play long enough after both of his knee injuries, but substantially worse IMO. At least Sayers' injuries occurred in a game he chose to play. Travis' injuries occurred due to a situation that our country required him to be in. I personally think that is a vastly different situation, particularly when he was clearly on a HOF track when called.

In my estimation, Travis is by far the most striking example of a career wholly derailed by something completely out of his control and completely unrelated to baseball. I realize he won't get in, ever. But he is absolutely due for far more credit than he has ever been given. The fact that he never gets it is too bad.

Very well said. I do think at some point he'll get in, but it'll take voters with enough understanding of everything you''ve just stated.

Exhibitman · #20 12-17-2019, 09:13 AM

What Kenny said. Travis was a speedster whose game was mobility and disruption; damage his feet and it is over, as was the case. He paid the price and would make a reasonable addition to the Hall. At least I'd have no issues with it, which is great because I know how important my views are to the HOF committee.

conor912 · #21 12-17-2019, 09:31 AM

I love how we�re now debating which war injuries are Hall worthy

tedzan · #22 12-17-2019, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

Sorry Ted, but the other Ted was notorious for wanting EVERYONE in the hall of fame with him. I'd value the opinion of a LOT of people more than Williams. Frankly I'd take your word over Ted's lol. For my money Alvin Dark belongs in the Hall before Phil. Phil was a plus defender (but no Ozzie Smith, or even Pee Wee Reese) and only had one exceptional offensive season and several above average. Even if you give him his war years back he barely would've cleared 2000 hits.

I'm definitely one of those guys who wishes the Hall was more exclusive. Rizzuto was a very good player with flashes of greatness, but if he had played in Cleveland he wouldn't be in the Hall.

Unlike some other people here though I can agree to cordially disagree!

Happy Holidays!

Scott

"Agree, to disagree".....the most phony phrase in this "new-speak" world. I hate that phrase. What the hell does it actually mean ? Whatever, I totally disagree with you, ole buddy.

I normally do not discuss BB topics with any one who did not experience the subject matter in real-time. Because there really are no Stats, hearsay, etc., etc. that can substitute for
having seen the players perform. I was an avid BB fan growing up in the late 1940's - 1950's. As a young guy, I went to all three New York Stadiums and watched a lot of BB on TV.
The Yankees "dynasty" (1949 - 1953) was an amazing thing to see. It is an achievement in BB which I doubt will ever be repeated. It began with Casey Stengel in 1949 (which the
phony NY media declared him a "clown"). Sure, Casey was an underrated Manager in the Majors and the Minors in the past. However, given the right ballplayers he became a Base-
ball genius.
This I can attest to from having lengthy conversations with Tommy Henrich, Johnny Mize, and Phil Rizzuto. I was on a flight to Chicago in April of 1984 with Phil Rizzuto (he invited
me to sit in 1st Class with him). The common theme from these three ballplayers was that Stengel inspired them to play at their best. Indeed Rizzuto in 1949 scored 110 Runs and
drove in 65 Runs (pretty good for a Lead-Off batter). Well, the MVP Committee thought enough of Phil that he came in 2nd that year (Ted Williams was awarded MVP).
In 1950, Rizzuto was awarded the MVP. His numbers in 1950 = 200 Hits, BA = .324, 125 Runs, 66 RBI's, 92 BB, 7 HR's (and only 39 KO's). Phil's defensive play was outstanding.

Scott, all those years of BB are very clear in my mind. You will find out as you get to be my age that your mind starts reverting back to your youth. And you recall a lot of this stuff
as it may have occurred recently. I'll end with this...�.

Here's a Wirephoto of the Oct 1st 1949 Play-Off game against Boston. Allie Reynolds just didn't have it that day, so Casey Stengel brings in the Yankees ace reliever Joe Page in the
3rd inning. Page completely shuts-down the Red Sox batters, allowing only one Hit in 6 2/3rds innings. And, Johnny Lindell drives a long HR into the Left Field seats of Yankee Sta-
dium to win game. I bring this particular event to you to as an example of Baseball games which I still clearly remember from 70 years ago.

Johnny Lindell ��.��.��.. Joe Page ��. Joe DiMaggio

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #23 12-17-2019, 07:30 PM

Ted,

I just meant that in a day and age when people seem to think anyone who disagrees with them is at best a substandard intellect, and at worst sub-human, I just think of the person in question as a friend who sees things differently from me. It's not some reason to hold a grudge or think less of someone. Probably bordering on the political now so I'll stop.

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