Hall of Fame voting and WWII

G1911 · #1 12-18-2019, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

My only point is that the HOF has rewarded players with induction for one incredible season. Dean's accomplishments are so in line with Santana's that they could be almost the same player, but one of them won 30 games and the other didn't. It's the 30 games that sets them apart and makes one a HOFer over the other. That's all I'm trying to say. I'm not saying what Travis did is equal to Dean winning 30 games or Wilson's rbi record. I'm simply trying to point out that the HOF has inducted players based on one out of this world season and the promise of what could have been if not for XYZ.

You don't have an argument for Chesbro, right? We are in agreement that he's only in the HOF because he won 41 games in a season once?

These two had short careers, but if all they accomplished was Dean's 1934 season and Hack's RBI record, they would absolutely not be in the hall of fame. Again, I probably would not vote for either myself, but to ignore both of these mens other fantastic seasons is not just misleading, it's factually wrong.

We do not agree on Chesbro either. Chesbro was a star pitcher in 1901, 1902 and 1905 as well. He led the league in wins in 1901. He had 4 hall of fame level seasons, posting ERA's far, far better than the league. Obviously the 41 win season was his best, and a key component of his value, but if he had not had the other seasons, he would also not be in the hall of fame. He proved more durable than Dean or Santana, pitching 1,000 innings more than either of them. Even among the players I think are among the worst selections to the Hall, they are not in for 1 single season. This claim is just not true, and is easily proven incorrect by looking at their season by season statistics. There is not a single player in the Hall of Fame who only had 1 excellent/hall of fame season.

packs · #2 12-18-2019, 02:53 PM

If you say so. I can think of a million pitchers with 4 good seasons. Even Chesbro's Wikipedia includes notes about how dubious his selection was and Bill James himself says he's only in for his 1904 season.

G1911 · #3 12-18-2019, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

If you say so. I can think of a million pitchers with 4 good seasons. Even Chesbro's Wikipedia includes notes about how dubious his selection was and Bill James himself says he's only in for his 1904 season.

As I just said above, he only had 4 excellent seasons and I think he is among the worst in the Hall of Fame. I agree with this. I would not vote for Chesbro either.

The claim that he only had 1 hall of fame level season and is in only for this season is pretty easily disproven by looking at his annual statistics.

packs · #4 12-18-2019, 02:59 PM

So he's in the HOF for having 4 excellent seasons and not the 41 wins? I highly doubt that. There are a lot of pitchers with 4 excellent seasons.

G1911 · #5 12-18-2019, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

So he's in the HOF for having 4 excellent seasons and not the 41 wins? I highly doubt that. There are a lot of pitchers with 4 excellent seasons.

If you remove a player best season, the bottom quarter of the hall probably falls out. However, if they only had that 1 season at a high level, none of them would be in either. I would love to hear a single, solitary example of a player who had ONE hall of fame level season. I will happily say you are right if even just one example can be shown.

packs · #6 12-18-2019, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G1911

If you remove a player best season, the bottom quarter of the hall probably falls out. However, if they only had that 1 season at a high level, none of them would be in either. I would love to hear a single, solitary example of a player who had ONE hall of fame level season. I will happily say you are right if even just one example can be shown.

We're not talking about the best season. It's the ONLY season that made him a HOFer. I'm sorry, but if Chesbro won 41 games over three more seasons he's not in the HOF. He's only in the HOF because he won 41 games in one season. To view him any other way seems like a reach to me. None of the seasons you brought up as being "excellent" seem all that excellent. Even when he led the league in wins in 1902, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team. Nor was he the best pitcher in 1901. Each year he was outclassed by Deacon Phillippe and Jess Tannehil, nether of whom are HOFers. Neither of whom won 41 games.

G1911 · #7 12-18-2019, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

We're not talking about the best season. It's the ONLY season that made him a HOFer. I'm sorry, but if Chesbro won 41 games over three more seasons he's not in the HOF. He's only in the HOF because he won 41 games in one season. To view him any other way seems like a reach to me. None of the seasons you brought up as being "excellent" seem all that excellent. Even when he led the league in wins in 1902, he wasn't even the best pitcher on his own team. Nor was he the best pitcher in 1901. Each year he was outclassed by Deacon Phillippe and Jess Tannehil, nether of whom are HOFers. Neither of whom won 41 games.

Does one have to be the best pitcher/hitter in the league to have a hall of fame level season now? That would put travis at a solid 0 now. We would also have to kick out half of the hall of fame, and then elect a bunch of guys who had 1 great season and were the best pitcher or hitter that year in that league. Your argument changes every single post.

I have already said, multiple times now, that Chesbro is a poor selection. But it is just not factually true that he only had 1 hall of fame level season. If he had only that season, he would not be in the hall of fame (as evidenced by the fact that not a single short-peak player in the Hall, even the worst selections, have only had 1 excellent season).

Yes, if Chesbro did what he did over a long career, it would be less impressive. That is obvious. It is true of every single player in baseball history. If Travis had his 1941 season's numbers cut into 3 years, he would have been sent to the Minor Leagues. If Willie Mays took 60 seasons to do what he did in 20, he would have been a far below average player every year and also sent packing long before his 60th season. This is an absurdist argument, that a player is not a real hall of famer or a star because if you take their best years and pretend they happened in 3 times the length, they would not be hall of famers or stars. There must be some logic, some rationality, some consistency, and we must look at the actual numbers, which are freely available.

maniac_73 · #8 12-18-2019, 09:02 PM

Ted, more stories please I'm really enjoying them!

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