Glory of Their Times

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Your point about requiring evidence is well made, but not this part of it, in my opinion. It's not something that was ever addressed in either direction by the vast majority of ballplayers, I would guess, an extremely controversial topic and not something they would want to appear in print about. Have you heard Crawford on the "Glory" tapes? I don't see how his stories can be discounted entirely, but as I noted, I'm suspending all judgement on the matter and keeping an open mind. I will even go so far as to admit that I was wrong to call him that with just that one interview with a teammate to go on.

Take a look at the link I posted. If you could personally confirm some of the assertions made - that Cobb was quoted as saying blacks should be able to play in the Majors, and that he personally attended and threw out the first pitch in some Negro League games, and then sat in the dugout with players, would that be enough for you to conclude Cobb was definitely NOT a racist?

If so, apparently those events are documented somewhere. Perhaps the author includes his original sources within his book, or maybe you could contact him directly.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Take a look at the link I posted. If you could personally confirm some of the assertions made - that Cobb was quoted as saying blacks should be able to play in the Majors, and that he personally attended and threw out the first pitch in some Negro League games, and then sat in the dugout with players, would that be enough for you to conclude Cobb was definitely NOT a racist?

If so, apparently those events are documented somewhere. Perhaps the author includes his original sources within his book, or maybe you could contact him directly.

If Cobb threw out the first pitch at a single Negro League game, and/or sat in the dugout with the players--things I've never heard before--that would do it for me! Just attending Negro Leagues might make a strong enough case. I told you I have suspended judgement on the matter, and I meant that. I was wrong to take Crawford's recollections on the tapes and what I thought was common wisdom and turn it into such an accusation. But don't any of the recent books take the matter head on and resolve it with research? Don't any of you who are so interested in the matter--which I am not any more, frankly--have the results of that research to point to? How can this still be a matter for debate? I don't get it.

[Mark17]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

If Cobb threw out the first pitch at a single Negro League game, and/or sat in the dugout with the players--things I've never heard before--that would do it for me! Just attending Negro Leagues might make a strong enough case.

Great, then why not read Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty, and then independently verify those claims. Considering all the time and effort you've put into TGOTT, why not put in just a little more, in fairness to Ty.

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

I told you I have suspended judgement on the matter, and I meant that. I was wrong to take Crawford's recollections on the tapes and what I thought was common wisdom and turn it into such an accusation. But don't any of the recent books take the matter head on and resolve it with research? Don't any of you who are so interested in the matter--which I am not any more, frankly--have the results of that research to point to? How can this still be a matter for debate? I don't get it.

Yes, the book Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty by Charles Leerhsen. Again, instead of going by popular opinion, which led you astray the first time, I would suggest you not just read this book and consider it the final word, but confirm the facts he presents for yourself. After that, I'd appreciate knowing what your ultimate conclusion is on the matter.

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by Mark17

Great, then why not read Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty, and then independently verify those claims. Considering all the time and effort you've put into TGOTT, why not put in just a little more, in fairness to Ty.





Yes, the book Ty Cobb: A Terrible Beauty by Charles Leerhsen. Again, instead of going by popular opinion, which led you astray the first time, I would suggest you not just read this book and consider it the final word, but confirm the facts he presents for yourself. After that, I'd appreciate knowing what your ultimate conclusion is on the matter.

No problem, I will read the book at some point. If he's done enough research to firmly refute the apparent misconception on my part (and many others) that Ty was a racist, that's a great thing for Cobb, his family, and his many admirers. It's even more admirable considering, as I said before, that I have no problem calling the country racist during that time, and nobody will ever shake me from that assertion--I remember seeing "white" and "colored" signs in D.C. as late as my high school years. Earlier in the discussion, I mentioned that my grandfather was friends with Cobb, and you won't find much bad about him in my book. I have no ax to grind against him, and never did.