Jackie Robinson/Willie Mays

[Gr8Beldini]

"Who was the better player" usually does not drive price. Nor does a player passing away. When a player dies, there might be a little more demand initially, but everybody dies and ultimately that initial price bump will level off. What drives price, more than anything else is "iconic." There is no better example of this than Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente. There aren't 5 players in history that were better players than Hank Aaron, yet Roberto Clemente, an EXACT contempory, will sell at a higher price in almost any set. While Hank is respected for his greatness, Roberto is Revered. It is why Nolan Ryan cards sell for more money than Tom Seaver cards. It is why Bob Gibson cards sell for much more than Juan Marichal cards. Marichal was the better pitcher but not nearly as iconic as Gibson. It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend. Joe Morgan was a significantly better player than his teammate Pete Rose, but in almost any set, Rose's cards sell for more (usually much more). Joe Torre was a better player than Tony Conigliaro but who's cards are more in demand (thereby more expensive). Two teammates Jack Morris (HoFer) vs. Mark Fidrych (one year wonder). Which rookie card will sell for more money? Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines. The demand for Jackie's cards is driven by his status as a cultural icon, not because he was a very good baseball player.

[JollyElm]

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

"Who was the better player" usually does not drive price. Nor does a player passing away. When a player dies, there might be a little more demand initially, but everybody dies and ultimately that initial price bump will level off. What drives price, more than anything else is "iconic." There is no better example of this than Hank Aaron and Roberto Clemente. There aren't 5 players in history that were better players than Hank Aaron, yet Roberto Clemente, an EXACT contempory, will sell at a higher price in almost any set. While Hank is respected for his greatness, Roberto is Revered. It is why Nolan Ryan cards sell for more money than Tom Seaver cards. It is why Bob Gibson cards sell for much more than Juan Marichal cards. Marichal was the better pitcher but not nearly as iconic as Gibson. It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend. Joe Morgan was a significantly better player than his teammate Pete Rose, but in almost any set, Rose's cards sell for more (usually much more). Joe Torre was a better player than Tony Conigliaro but who's cards are more in demand (thereby more expensive). Two teammates Jack Morris (HoFer) vs. Mark Fidrych (one year wonder). Which rookie card will sell for more money? Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines. The demand for Jackie's cards is driven by his status as a cultural icon, not because he was a very good baseball player.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=277906

[Volod]

What an historical difference three months made in 1947.

[Bigdaddy]

Originally Posted by Volod

What an historical difference three months made in 1947.

I've thought about this quite often. And Doby was in the AL, playing in parks and cities that Jackie never visited. So even though he was three months later, he still was plowing ground that Jackie had never seen. Not meant at all to diminish what Jackie did, but Larry was right there beside him.

The same could be said for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Neil happened to be the first one down the ladder (and not by happenstance), and those couple of minutes made all the difference in their legacies.

Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue.

Being first matters.

[Volod]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

I've thought about this quite often. And Doby was in the AL, playing in parks and cities that Jackie never visited. So even though he was three months later, he still was plowing ground that Jackie had never seen. Not meant at all to diminish what Jackie did, but Larry was right there beside him.

The same could be said for Neil Armstrong and Buzz Aldrin. Neil happened to be the first one down the ladder (and not by happenstance), and those couple of minutes made all the difference in their legacies.

Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue.

Being first matters.

I've also thought about it quite often, and the one factor that always stumps me is the NY aspect of it. Of course, it's entirely conjecture, but does anyone imagine that if Bill Veeck had brought Larry up at the same time Rickey elevated Jackie, their historical significance - not to mention their card values - would be equal today? Or do you think that if the Indians opened their season on a Tuesday and the Dodgers opened on the next day, it would be different today?

[JollyElm]

It certainly doesn't have the magnitude of the Jackie Robinson/Larry Doby story, but along with Armstrong/Aldrin, it reminds me of Ron Blomberg becoming the first designated hitter in MLB history (and his bat sent to Cooperstown). It was supposed to be Orlando Cepeda, but his game was rained out (I believe?), and the honor became Boomer's alone, making him the answer to a trivia question forevermore.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by JollyElm

It certainly doesn't have the magnitude of the Jackie Robinson/Larry Doby story, but along with Armstrong/Aldrin, it reminds me of Ron Blomberg becoming the first designated hitter in MLB history (and his bat sent to Cooperstown). It was supposed to be Orlando Cepeda, but his game was rained out (I believe?), and the honor became Boomer's alone, making him the answer to a trivia question forevermore.

The Yankees played at the Red Sox that day, Blomberg was batting sixth for the Yankees and Cepeda was batting fifth for the Red Sox. The Yankees scored three runs in the top of the first inning so Blomberg was able to bat before Cepeda, who didn't come up until the bottom of the second.

[Empty77]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

. . .Take a poll and ask who was the second black player in the Majors, or who was the second man on the moon, and most folks won't have a clue. . .

Disagree. Everyone knows the second one down was Buzz Lightyear.

[Uncle Miltie]

Larry Doby felt he was a better player than Jackie Robinson, and he was probably right. Others of the time shared his opinion as well, but Jackie was ex-military and a college man, which made him a better candidate for Branch Rickey. Larry Doby suffered greatly, perhaps as much Jackie Robinson, but in comparison he is not regarded in the same light. Almost all the Cleveland players did not want Larry on the team, especially Eddie Robinson whose behavior toward Doby during that season caused him to be traded the following year.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Uncle Miltie

Larry Doby felt he was a better player than Jackie Robinson, and he was probably right. Others of the time shared his opinion as well, but Jackie was ex-military and a college man, which made him a better candidate for Branch Rickey. Larry Doby suffered greatly, perhaps as much Jackie Robinson, but in comparison he is not regarded in the same light. Almost all the Cleveland players did not want Larry on the team, especially Eddie Robinson whose behavior toward Doby during that season caused him to be traded the following year.

I'm gonna have to side with Robinson again here. Both guys have very similar career offensive production, but Robinson was much better defensively than Doby, and Doby played mostly in his prime years in the majors (while Robinson was late 20s to late 30s then).

[Volod]

Cleveland curmudgeon that I am, I still ponder what the current discussion would sound like if Bill Veeck had been able to start the 1947 season with Larry Doby in centerfield for the Indians.

[cardsagain74]

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

" Jackie Robinson was a great player but he wasn't any better than Tim Raines.

This is nowhere near true. While Robinson's numbers alone obviously don't merit legendary status, he still had a career OPS of almost .900 and was a great second baseman. Raines hit with less pop and couldn't catch a cold in the outfield. He was obviously a much better base stealer, but that's it.

Also, Robinson's WAR per season is about the same as Mantle and Aaron. Yeah he didn't do it for as long, but he also missed most of his 20s. It's very debatable how iconic he is, but he was much better than any typical bottom tier HOFer

[MarcosCards]

Originally Posted by Gr8Beldini

It is why there is tremendous demand for the rookie card of Steve Dalkowski. Never threw a pitch in the majors but is a legend.

Woah, this reference sent me on a Google search for information on Mr. Dalkowski. I thought I knew a lot about the 1963 set — but I didn’t know about this “iconic” card.

[tonyo]

As to the OP question, I don't typically follow pricing trends, but my initial gut feel is Jackie better value long term due to his place in American History, but then like the OP .....a few seconds later I think " I don't know about that"

*I think* Willie's cards are hanging in there above Jackie's now days despite his current apparent surly nature.

Personally, I've been a Mays-the-baseball-player fan since I started collecting and reading up on baseball history back in second grade. He does have an iconic well-known, magical moment in baseball ("The Catch"), He's part of a song that will likely last among baseball history clips (Willie, Mickey, and the Duke), he had a cool, friendly nick-name, I'm probably wrong on this one, but my perception all these years has been he was one of the first to combine big HR & big SB numbers and generally speaking he has good looking cards and photos. (61 topps not withstanding).

It's unfortunate to read how miserable he has become, and believe me if I had a similar encounter, my opinion of his cards would probably plummet as well.

But it's probably likely that it's a small percentage of collectors that know of his public-manner in retirement. I've read pretty often how the net54 community is a small percent of the actual collecting community, even though it seems like the entire collecting universe to me. Probably the same for autograph seekers.

I suspect it's possible that future collectors may hear of his rudeness at signings and attribute it to "grumpy old man" syndrome.

On the other hand, I always liked DiMaggio-the-player but read that Robert Cramer book about 5 years ago and came away with a distaste for him as a person. Still like his cards and images though.

I'm curious if there are books written about Mays that depict him as unlikeable off the field? or did anyone here have encounters with him in his playing days? Was he a jerk in his 20's ,30's and 40's?

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by MarcosCards

Woah, this reference sent me on a Google search for information on Mr. Dalkowski. I thought I knew a lot about the 1963 set — but I didn’t know about this “iconic” card.

I love the ‘63 Dalkowski if for no other reason than his minor league stats on the back: 1099 K’s, 1136 BB’s in 697 innings pitched.


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