Shoeless Joe in the HOF...and his cards?

BeanTown · #1 01-17-2020, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

If MLB knows the rules around the ban I'm sure the HOF does too. Don't see how it changes things for anyone banned. The guilty are not made innocent in death.

Maybe the people who said he is guilty, are guilty. Corruption goes both ways and there was a lot of pressure for those people who had a say in his guilt. What were Joe stats again in the series?

packs · #2 01-17-2020, 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeanTown

Maybe the people who said he is guilty, are guilty. Corruption goes both ways and there was a lot of pressure for those people who had a say in his guilt. What were Joe stats again in the series?

This is a pragmatic issue. If you were banned for something you did in life, dying doesn't erase what you did in life.

Kenny Cole · #3 01-17-2020, 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by packs

This is a pragmatic issue. If you were banned for something you did in life, dying doesn't erase what you did in life.

The question is, what did he do? A jury acquitted him. Landis convicted and banned him despite the verdict. I can see good arguments both ways.

AGuinness · #4 01-17-2020, 09:58 PM

Life, death, guilty, innocent, stats... none of that will change. I think the impact on his cards, as asked about in the OP, is an interesting question, and I could imagine a small bump surrounding the announcement if he were voted in. But I wouldn't anticipate a dramatic shift, as his status as an elite MLB player has already been baked into the price, as well as the infamy surrounding him - and that infamy, I think, is in the same ballpark already as his HOF status would be.

Jim65 · #5 01-18-2020, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

The question is, what did he do? A jury acquitted him. Landis convicted and banned him despite the verdict. I can see good arguments both ways.

The jury acquitted them all, does that mean they were all innocent of taking money and throwing games?

#6 01-18-2020, 06:30 AM

Thanks Leon got this one last year

Kenny Cole · #7 01-18-2020, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

The jury acquitted them all, does that mean they were all innocent of taking money and throwing games?

I don't know. Do you?

Jim65 · #8 01-18-2020, 07:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenny Cole

I don't know. Do you?

I don't think we will ever know positively about Jackson but the fact that a jury acquitted him is really irrelevant is the point I was trying to make.

Kenny Cole · #9 01-18-2020, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

I don't think we will ever know positively about Jackson but the fact that a jury acquitted him is really irrelevant is the point I was trying to make.

No, actually its not. You made what essentially seems like a guilt by association argument, i.e., that somebody threw the series so it doesn't matter if Jackson did or not. That's the Buck Weaver argument and I personally think its a load of crap. Always have. Do you rat out your buddies whenever they do something you don't approve of or think is wrong?

The jury heard the evidence and he and the others were acquitted. If you want to argue that the trial was tainted, OK. Some are, either way. For every OJ, I can probably name someone who sat on death row for years before being exonerated because the prosecutors cheated by withholding exculpatory evidence. Juries most often get it right IMO, but sometimes they don't. The system isn't perfect but it generally works.

But it was Landis (who was a federal judge), not the process, who said that whether or not he did it didn't matter. Jackson didn't have a Court of Appeals he could ask to review his ban. Landis was it. That's rather unfair too, since Landis was a creation of the owners, including Comiskey, and Jackson's alleged actions took place before he had any jurisdiction. On other occasions, Landis used that very fact to duck having to make a decision.

I don't know whether Jackson was involved or not, although the stuff I've read has me leaning a little bit toward probably not. At this point, its a court of public perception issue as much as anything, which probably also screws Jackson since his guilt has been assumed for so long. But the answer to the first question I asked is still that no one knows what Jackson did. That matters. How can you decide whether someone is HOF worthy if you don't even know whether they did what is clearly keeping them out?

Republicaninmass · #10 01-18-2020, 07:04 AM

We need lawsuits or it never happened.

I think prices baked in. In fact, this revelation would justify the run up on them in the last few years. Theyve gone a little nuts

chalupacollects · #11 01-18-2020, 03:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim65

The jury acquitted them all, does that mean they were all innocent of taking money and throwing games?

It means the prosecution didn't prove it's case. That said he was not guilty so maybe the HOF does vote him in on that merit...

Tabe · #12 01-18-2020, 10:47 PM

Question is moot - the Hall clarified today that they will continue to honor bans after death.

Leon · #13 01-26-2020, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

Question is moot - the Hall clarified today that they will continue to honor bans after death.

I am one who believes Jackson's value is already baked in. That said, there would be some more HOF collectors who would need him and don't now.

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