Let's welcome Charlie Barokas to the Billion Dollar Fraud!

Johnny630 · #1 01-26-2020, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trambo

I would imagine if you grabbed all of the trimmed cards from the inception of the hobby to today you may get a billion dollars in value changes. I would also imagine that if you put it to the current situation that you would get far, far less than a billion of improved value. As I said yesterday, just because people keep saying it doesn't make it so. A billion is a bunch. This isn't a billion. Don't get me wrong, it's bad when people cheat but a billion...no way.

I've also been wondering what people's thoughts are regarding the % of cards graded that are actually tainted in some way. I would guess that number to be pretty low but am curious if anyone else had a thought. I'm thinking < 1% of cards graded. No data to support it but it's just my hunch.

I believe it way way more they %1 of the total population of graded cards that are altered in some way, WAY MORE.

Johnny630 · #2 01-26-2020, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I believe it way way more they %1 of the total population of graded cards that are altered in some way, WAY MORE.

The big major issue to me is so far the Buyers and Auction Houses/Major
Sellers Do Not Care if a card is altered or whom gives them the card to consign its all about if it’s Slabbed By PSA they could care less altered or not. Look at the stupid Numbers things are selling for on Pwcc Mile High and Heritage unless they’re all manipulated bids/sales......Very Will Could Be...One Last Manufactured Run to Pump and Dump their inventories before the Crash......idk it’s trash....makes me sick

swarmee · #3 01-26-2020, 08:16 AM

My personal guess is that between 10-20% of PSA graded cards are altered without detection. Looks like David Thorn and Evan Mathis were able to trim uncut sheets and get them slabbed by PSA as originally cut in the 1960s/70s. Again, some of these card doctors have been slabbing a 1000+ cards a year for 10 years each. 10x10x1,000 = 100,000 cards just from these guys. And we're not even talking about all the bleaching, erasures, pressing, etc that isn't as detectable from images without before and after pictures.

Again, it's not like all these card alterers were only submitting five cards at a time. Often, the submissions are 100 cards long with only 3 being outed as trimmed. If you want to believe that the other 97% are clean until given visible evidence, you can. I don't live in Fantasyland.

buymycards · #4 01-26-2020, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swarmee

My personal guess is that between 10-20% of PSA graded cards are altered without detection. Looks like David Thorn and Evan Mathis were able to trim uncut sheets and get them slabbed by PSA as originally cut in the 1960s/70s. Again, some of these card doctors have been slabbing a 1000+ cards a year for 10 years each. 10x10x1,000 = 100,000 cards just from these guys. And we're not even talking about all the bleaching, erasures, pressing, etc that isn't as detectable from images without before and after pictures.

Again, it's not like all these card alterers were only submitting five cards at a time. Often, the submissions are 100 cards long with only 3 being outed as trimmed. If you want to believe that the other 97% are clean until given visible evidence, you can. I don't live in Fantasyland.

PSA claims to have slabbed 30 million cards. If 5% of these are altered, that is 1.5 million altered cards. That would be $667 per card to equal one billion dollars. And that is not counting problem cards and auto's from SGC, Beckett, GAI, etc. This could easily go over the 1 Billion mark.

Johnny630 · #5 01-26-2020, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by buymycards

PSA claims to have slabbed 30 million cards. If 5% of these are altered, that is 1.5 million altered cards. That would be $667 per card to equal one billion dollars. And that is not counting problem cards and auto's from SGC, Beckett, GAI, etc. This could easily go over the 1 Billion mark.

It so sad but it doesn’t matter one bit. Everything is priced in no prosecution or law enforcement action is going to stop this ........the only way it stops is when the buyers dry up.....period the market will either fix/correct itself or this is just the way it’s going to be.....PSA Auction Houses and Major Registry guys want it this way they don’t want their gravy train to end.

So disgraceful but this is the bottom line facts ......I can’t stomach it anymore that’s why I’ve chosen to sell almost all...I feel better waiting on the sidelines to see what happens

japhi · #6 01-26-2020, 08:20 PM

Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.

It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable.

So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number.

Flintboy · #7 01-26-2020, 11:14 PM

At the end of the day it shouldn�t matter if it�s $100 or 1 billion dollars in fraud. It�s criminally, morally, and ethically wrong.

Aquarian Sports Cards · #8 01-27-2020, 12:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by japhi

Personally I think the 1B number is ridiculous. PSA is only a 75mm company, and more then half of that from coins. Cards, I think 30mm or so. I suspect BGS is much smaller.

It is however hard to swag this thing, but what we know is BO has found 5-10MM in value lift between all sports. And they only have access to a minuscule amount of data - only a fraction of only sales can be worked and most raw, card show, private, set, lot, etc cards are untraceable.

So this thing is clearly wide ranging and the number is big. But the guys hyperventilating about 1b need to chill out a bit or show how the math works on that number.

????

First, they've graded or authenticated over 30 million pieces. If it's an average price of $20 per that's $600 million.

Second, what on earth does that have to do with the dollar value of the scandal? If they grade a card that should be worth $500,000 and give it a grade that results in it being worth $10 million, do you think the fraud is just the cost of grading???!!!

MULLINS5 · #9 02-01-2020, 06:31 PM

PSA is a fraud who has "graded" over a billion dollars of cards.

Therefore, it's a billion dollar fraud.

boysblue · #10 02-02-2020, 11:54 AM

The fellas over on Blow Out should be commended for uncovering this stuff. I cannot imagine the time and diligence required, so congrats to them.

Republicaninmass · #11 02-02-2020, 12:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

PSA is a fraud who has "graded" over a billion dollars of cards.

Therefore, it's a billion dollar fraud.

Lol, ticker JUST shy of 79 million!

Stil a ways to go

Republicaninmass · #12 01-26-2020, 08:09 AM

I'm not trying to lessen the extent of the fraud. When people make outlandish claims, it actually LESSENS the credibility surrounding the claim. Albeit from the resident pedestrian poster.

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