W573 and E120 checklist help requested, and identifying a new W573 type

GeoPoto · #1 02-01-2020, 03:30 AM

Is Zachary on either list?

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Steve L · #2 02-01-2020, 08:00 AM

Neither PSA nor SGC have labeled a card as a Daubert W573 card. PSA graded the Daubert W573 type 2 card as E120 Blank Back which I own. This card may have been the card in the 2007 Higgins and Scott Auction ungraded and sold as a W573 card (the auction picture shows it as a type 2 card). I've never seen a Daubert W573 type I or III card. Is it possible that your unconfirmed list of W573 type I cards is from cards sold as mixed W573 types? If someone has a Daubert W573 type I card, I'd love to know that it exists. Thanks

#3 02-01-2020, 08:48 AM

Here is my uncut strip 5 New York Nationals with Bancroft and 5 Chicago Americans with Eddie Collins and Schalk The list of W573 is listed with the E120 American Caramel & Associated Sets in " The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Vol 2 Early Gum & Candy Cards" by Lew Lipset 1984
New York Players Heine Groh, Jesse Barnes Emil (Irish) Meusel, Earl Smith and Dave (Beauty) Bancroft Chicago Players Johnny Mostil, Bib Falk, Ray Schalk, Eddie Collins and Earl Sheely

tkd · #4 02-01-2020, 10:22 AM

Interesting all the w573 strips I've seen like the one shown above have narrow left to right borders. Has anyone seen the vertical strip type with thick/wide left to right borders?

brianp-beme · #5 02-03-2020, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tkd

Interesting all the w573 strips I've seen like the one shown above have narrow left to right borders. Has anyone seen the vertical strip type with thick/wide left to right borders?

Good question. My memory tells me all the strips I have seen have narrow L/R borders, like the one posted. Definitely nothing like the width of the Type 3 cards I posted in the original post.

Brian

SMPEP · #6 02-01-2020, 10:27 AM

Hi Brian,

The E120 American Caramels have a very similar appearance to the nonsports E123 American Caramels movie star set. The E123s are also believed to have 2 types - ones with an American caramel back and one than is blank backed.

Personally, I think the information on the E123s is incorrect. I once acquired a large lot of E123s with the American Caramel back - and why it might be relevant here - a large number of these cards had the fronts and backs separate. There was one card with a ripped corner that had separated so it is obvious to me that this had once been an unseparated card.

Oh, and I should mention, you wouldn't believe how cleanly these cards separated. Both the front and backs were so clean that I would have thought these cards were made separately - instead of obviously splitting apart.

Based on this lot - I am convinced that there were not 2 types of the E123s - just one type that splits cleanly over time.

I have NO IDEA if the E120s are similar, but I thought you might wish to know this.

Cheers,
Patrick

Leon · #7 02-03-2020, 11:22 AM

From experience with other vintage issues, I didn't think the font type on the originally posted card was an absolute tell. Not saying it was ever taken or spoken that way, but that was my thought from initially seeing it. Fun stuff for vintage card nerds
BTW, One of the first of the different fonts, from, the same series, I looked into were some varieties of e94 overprints.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Hi Brian,

The E120 American Caramels have a very similar appearance to the nonsports E123 American Caramels movie star set. The E123s are also believed to have 2 types - ones with an American caramel back and one than is blank backed.

Personally, I think the information on the E123s is incorrect. I once acquired a large lot of E123s with the American Caramel back - and why it might be relevant here - a large number of these cards had the fronts and backs separate. There was one card with a ripped corner that had separated so it is obvious to me that this had once been an unseparated card.

Oh, and I should mention, you wouldn't believe how cleanly these cards separated. Both the front and backs were so clean that I would have thought these cards were made separately - instead of obviously splitting apart.

Based on this lot - I am convinced that there were not 2 types of the E123s - just one type that splits cleanly over time.

I have NO IDEA if the E120s are similar, but I thought you might wish to know this.

Cheers,
Patrick

brianp-beme · #8 02-03-2020, 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMPEP

Hi Brian,

The E120 American Caramels have a very similar appearance to the nonsports E123 American Caramels movie star set. The E123s are also believed to have 2 types - ones with an American caramel back and one than is blank backed.

Personally, I think the information on the E123s is incorrect. I once acquired a large lot of E123s with the American Caramel back - and why it might be relevant here - a large number of these cards had the fronts and backs separate. There was one card with a ripped corner that had separated so it is obvious to me that this had once been an unseparated card.

Oh, and I should mention, you wouldn't believe how cleanly these cards separated. Both the front and backs were so clean that I would have thought these cards were made separately - instead of obviously splitting apart.

Based on this lot - I am convinced that there were not 2 types of the E123s - just one type that splits cleanly over time.

I have NO IDEA if the E120s are similar, but I thought you might wish to know this.

Cheers,
Patrick

Interesting points Patrick. I had an E120 card that I at one time soaked because of scrapbook paper that also separated cleanly into front and back layers, and the sides that were once attached together came out very smooth and clean. The end result as you can imagine was very thin on each side, basically half the thickness of an E120 (or the comparably thick W573 Type 1 card).

Brian

brianp-beme · #9 02-03-2020, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rgpete

Here is my uncut strip 5 New York Nationals with Bancroft and 5 Chicago Americans with Eddie Collins and Schalk The list of W573 is listed with the E120 American Caramel & Associated Sets in " The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Vol 2 Early Gum & Candy Cards" by Lew Lipset 1984
New York Players Heine Groh, Jesse Barnes Emil (Irish) Meusel, Earl Smith and Dave (Beauty) Bancroft Chicago Players Johnny Mostil, Bib Falk, Ray Schalk, Eddie Collins and Earl Sheely

Like I mentioned in a previous post, I only remember seeing uncut W573 strips like the one you posted, which are narrow L/R, thus being a Type 1. All of the cards on that strip have been confirmed on the Type 1 list. New York Giants and Chicago White Sox are a couple of the teams that the vast majority of the 15 possible subjects have been confirmed.

Below is a run down of how many confirmed subjects each team has as seen in Type 1:

Boston Red Sox - 5
Chicago White Sox - 12
Cleveland Indians - 6
Detroit Tigers - 13
New York Yankees - 10
Philadelphia Athletics - 6
St. Louis Browns - 10
Washinton Senators - 6

Boston Braves - 5
Brooklyn Dodgers - 5
Chicago Cubs - 10
Cincinnati Reds - 6
New York Giants - 10
Philadelphia Phillies - 7
Pittsburgh Pirates - 10
St. Louis Cardinals - 13

Brian (my posting fury is over...everyone else is free to post)

brianp-beme · #10 02-03-2020, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve L

Neither PSA nor SGC have labeled a card as a Daubert W573 card. PSA graded the Daubert W573 type 2 card as E120 Blank Back which I own. This card may have been the card in the 2007 Higgins and Scott Auction ungraded and sold as a W573 card (the auction picture shows it as a type 2 card). I've never seen a Daubert W573 type I or III card. Is it possible that your unconfirmed list of W573 type I cards is from cards sold as mixed W573 types? If someone has a Daubert W573 type I card, I'd love to know that it exists. Thanks

Daubert is a card that has been unconfirmed on all 3 lists. For the purposes of my list I will accept any Type 2 cards that have been identified by a grading company as E120, as long as they appear to be machine cut and regular size. Does your graded Daubert appear regular size and machine cut, or a little narrow and hand cut? If the latter, I will remove it from the Unconfirmed Type 2 list.

I have not been able distinguish a thickness difference between a regular E120 card and a W573 Type 1, so unless it looks machine cut and regular size, I would assume it to be a W573. My eventual plan is to check graded cards online to identify any Type 2 or Type 3 cards out there, since all are labeled simply as W573.

A fair amount of the lists were created from my collection...I like neglected sets of cards.

Brian

brianp-beme · #11 02-03-2020, 07:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Is Zachary on either list?

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Thanks for posting. To me that looks like a Type 1, and the Zachary has already been confirmed for Type 1.

Brian

brianp-beme · #12 02-04-2020, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Is Zachary on either list?

Sent from my moto g(6) using Tapatalk

Found this W573 Zachary Type 3 on the internet, as well as this Ruth. Note the machine cut look and sizing differences between this Zachary and the one posted earlier. It would be great to break into the slabs and view the thickness, but both of these look exactly like the Type 3 cards.

They have been added to the Type 3 list as confirmed.

nolemmings · #13 02-04-2020, 01:42 PM

Here's mine:

brianp-beme · #14 02-04-2020, 01:49 PM

Thanks Todd...Rixey has been added to the Type 3 confirmed list. And nice card.

Brian

Leon · #15 02-07-2020, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Here's mine:

That is great looking, almost like it wasn't hand cut. Yet they and other TPGs put hand cut on cards that weren't. Go figure.

brianp-beme · #16 02-07-2020, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Leon

That is great looking, almost like it wasn't hand cut. Yet they and other TPGs put hand cut on cards that weren't. Go figure.

All the Type 3 cards I have seen, besides one which was obviously cut down, appear to be machine cut, are a larger size (both aspects fairly obvious in the scan of Todd's Rixey card) and are at least twice the thickness of the other two types of W573, as well as E120 cards, for that matter.

I am surprised that I have never seen any mention of these 'different' W573 cards before. Just shows you how little regard collectors have had toward W573 cards, and strip cards in general, that this fairly significant difference was not previously reported before.

Brian

DaveW · #17 02-07-2020, 11:32 PM

Hi Brian,
I have several that aren’t on your lists, but I’m confused. Here’s a picture of 4 cards with thick borders but obviously hand cut. All have blank backs and are on the normal thin stock. I guess they are Type 1 with thicker borders?
- Dave

brianp-beme · #18 02-08-2020, 01:37 AM

Hi Dave, I would consider those Type 1 cards because of their thin stock and the fact that they are hand cut. Type 1 cards are seen with slightly wider borders...check out the Type 1 Joe Schultz on the top right of the scan I included in the original post.

Brian

Leon · #19 02-10-2020, 05:29 PM

W573s get no respect. And some w573s I no longer own.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brianp-beme

All the Type 3 cards I have seen, besides one which was obviously cut down, appear to be machine cut, are a larger size (both aspects fairly obvious in the scan of Todd's Rixey card) and are at least twice the thickness of the other two types of W573, as well as E120 cards, for that matter.

I am surprised that I have never seen any mention of these 'different' W573 cards before. Just shows you how little regard collectors have had toward W573 cards, and strip cards in general, that this fairly significant difference was not previously reported before.

Brian

brianp-beme · #20 02-11-2020, 02:34 PM

Nice cards you used to own Leon. I guess they would be considered W573...

Brian

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