Class action suit filed against PSA, PWCC and Probstein

[trambo]

Originally Posted by steve B

Right, just stick our heads in the sand and think happy thoughts and all the problems will go away....

If only it worked like that.

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

[HRBAKER]

Sure it has always gone on. The difference now is that the money and stakes are much higher and the folks that have marketed us their protection services have proven to be better marketers than anything else.

[ZR1]

Personally I dont like how PSA grades cards. I dont see how a 60/40 centering gets a 10 Gem Mint! I sent them a Jordan rookie, pulled right from the pack, perfectly centered, sharp corners, etc. I get a 8. Im tempted to break out of case and send to SGC, just because. But Ive seen quite a few 60/40 centered Jordan rookies graded Gem Mint! Makes no sense to me. In my opinion, if you're a high volume card submitter, and your borderline of the better grade, you're getting the better grade.
As for the card altering, this stuff has been going on for many years. Im sure some graders know the cards are altered and trimmed and grade them anyways, put them in smaller cases. All one has to do is pull out a tape measure.
Makes the hobby not fun like it used to be. I personally wont buy any older high grade cards anymore, for the simple fact, it could be altered. Who wants to spend thousands, if not tens of thousands on a card, just to find out later on, it was altered. Id be pissed just like anyone else.

[ALR-bishop]

Opinions and names seem to go better together

[steve B]

Originally Posted by trambo

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

Other than the part about still collecting PSA cards I'm in nearly the same spot. Magnifier, good measuring tools, knowing what to look for.
It's not that I won't collect a card that PSA has already graded, but I probably won't send them any either. And likely won't be interested in paying a premium either. Not like I did in the past, I have maybe 5-6 PSA graded cards, and most of those came out of packs. (I have an ACU-Grade graded card, so obviously even a sketchy grading slab isn't out of the question at the right price. And yes, it's trimmed.)

I also really doubt I'll send any more to either SGC or Beckett. I used to send a few cards to SGC every couple years. Never say never, but I've seen stuff from both that makes me not want to give them any money.

The stuff that's shown so far is bad, and in some cases, it goes beyond what I can see justifying a claim of mere incompetence.
Sometimes I wonder how bad it would have to be before people abandoned PSA?

As far as this thread goes, I think that a suit against two large resellers and the largest grading company is news that goes beyond the "Hey the blowout guys caught another one"

[WhenItWasAHobby]

I just skimmed through the petition. If the plaintiff really wanted to make an impact and see justice he should have included the outed card doctors as co-defendants.

It will be interesting if this impacts CU's stock and how Joe Orlando addresses this if asked in the next quarterly investor's conference call.

I have one question for the lawyers on this board. Just about the entire case stands or falls on the scans of the cards before and after they were allegedly altered. What will the plaintiff's lawyers have to do to make those scans admissible as opposed to being just hearsay?

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by WhenItWasAHobby

I just skimmed through the petition. If the plaintiff really wanted to make an impact and see justice he should have included the outed card doctors as co-defendants.

I'm not sure the card doctors have any culpability to the card buyers. It's not illegal or fraudulent to trim a card*. My understanding is that you attest that cards are not altered when you submit them but that would seem to create a problem between the TPGs and the card doctors not the doctors and the buyers.

I'm not a lawyer so feel free to correct me, everyone, if the above is incorrect.

* - obviously, it's fraudulent to trim a card and then sell or trade it to someone and not reveal it's trimmed, while representing the card as unaltered

[Republicaninmass]

You heard it here.


Straight from the horses ass



The hobby and the board wont miss the deep insight, and PSA surely won't miss the revenue.

[MULLINS5]

PSA isn't going anywhere and people need to stop trying to change other's minds on graded cards. How people spend their money is their business. Whatever makes one happy - more power to you. But for me, as I've said, no mas. PSA will never get a dime from me and their slabs have no place in my collection. I do like the predicament they're in, so the more threads the merrier.

[Gusturd]

Originally Posted by MULLINS5

PSA isn't going anywhere and people need to stop trying to change other's minds on graded cards. How people spend their money is their business. Whatever makes one happy - more power to you. But for me, as I've said, no mas. PSA will never get a dime from me and their slabs have no place in my collection. I do like the predicament they're in, so the more threads the merrier.

A fool and his money are soon parted.

I wonder if they were as thorough with their autographs too?

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by trambo

Of course someone would take it that way. There's no doubt an issue but it's not a new issue. This is the current iteration of something that's been going on for decades. People trim, color and otherwise alter cards. Those people are bad. That hasn't changed. What seems to have changed are those people who relentlessly beat the drum in front of people who already are well aware there's an issue and bash and bully them if they don't also start beating the drum.

There's an issue. I'm aware. I don't think it's as bad as the people who keep calling me an idiot, stupid, a sheep and lots of other words I don't care to post think it is. I've also not buried my head in the sand. I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!

I'm sure there are many others who read these boards that feel the same way.

+1

Steve

[benge610]

RE: "I own and use a ruler. I own several loupes. I don't buy from PWCC. I still collect PSA graded cards. I'm paying attention. So please don't say just because people want to have discussions about other things have heads buried in the sand. It's just that we get it!"

Thank you Troy for stating. I am perfectly fine "bottom feeding" real raw/graded caramels; it is still a most enjoyable hobby.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by benge610

I am perfectly fine "bottom feeding" real raw/graded caramels; it is still a most enjoyable hobby.

Exactly. I mean, I don't want to break up a fine whining session, but the obvious solution is to stop playing the game. Find a segment of the hobby that is not reliant on TPG and see if it interests you. If so, forget the slabs and all the headaches, and take your business elsewhere. I bought one (1) slabbed card at the National last year and it was slabbed by CSA (remember them?) and was purchased solely to crack out and join my raw card collection because I could see that the card was good. Guess what: I had a great time ignoring the slabs, better than in a lot of other years. Now I am watching thousands of slabbed cards outed as altered and it is just a spectator sport to me. I sit back and enjoy my albums, and spend my time introducing slabs to Mr. Dremel...

"A Card Collection is a magic carpet that takes you away from work-a-day cares to havens of relaxing quietude where you can relive the pleasures and adventures of a past day--brought to life with vivid pictures and prose."--Jefferson Burdick

This is supposed to be fun, not a stressor; if it isn't doing that for you, do yourself a favor and walk away.