1963 Topps checklist question

[rats60]

When Baseball expanded in 1961, Topps made their sets larger. The numbers were pretty consistent from 1961-1968 until MLB expanded in 1969. Every year from 1961-1968 the high series started at 523, except 1967 when they added 11 (22) cards to their set making 609 instead of 598 (587). They printed 11 extra cards in the 6th series and the high series started at 534. The 1961 set is identical to 1963 in numbers and we know that the high series starts at 523 because the high numbers are so scarce. Why would they print the cards differently in 1963?

It is not enough to say the colors match up because Topps could have just printed different numbers of each player. You are going to have 88 of each color card on the sheet. It is neat to say there must have been 22 of each color and they were printed 4 times, but we know that Topps wasn't always neat. In 1967 we believe that one row (with Seaver RC) was only printed 2 times while other rows were printed 3 or 4 times. So, it isn't enough to say the colors have to match up because they don't. There needs to be some definite proof that Topps decided to print the last 2 series completely different from every other year in the 1961-1968 time frame. You need either proof in the form of an uncut sheet, vending box or unopened pack(s). Or you need dealers, collectors and/or employees of Topps who were active in 1963 to contradict what is accepted.

[ALR-bishop]

Hopefully this thread will generate more input, analysis and debate, just as you suggest packs

[Kevvyg1026]

I agree that uncut sheets, miscuts, etc, are necessary to unequivocally know what was actually printed. However, in 1963, (like 1975), Topps used a printing method whereby two rows of cards were printed with the border colors together (i.e., one row right side up, the other upside down). Since Topps printed 11 cards in each row, these border counts should be multiples of 11.

Furthermore, if one believe that Topps printed 55 cards in the last series of 1963 (523 - 576 plus checklist), then that would be the only time during the period 1961 to 1973 that Topps printed 55 cards in a print run.

As far as 1967 goes, the 77 unique cards printed in the last series (534 - 609, plus checklist) over the spread of a 264 card print sheet was probably done using a pattern of four rows 4x each, two rows 3x each, and one row 2x each. This results in either 11 SPs, or 44 DPs.

[toppcat]

OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)

The series with 77 cards is the series that has the 11 double prints that have cropping differences and statistical differences, Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, etc. Those 11 double prints bring it up to a normal 88 cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

OK, I'm trying to puzzle out the fifth series with these new observations factored in. Based on the uncut sheet I show above, the 4th series runs from #284-370 according to the REA description (I have not checked further). However, to get to #446 where the 6th Series starts, it works out to a 77 card run for the 5th, if my math is correct, which seems an odd configuration given the findings in this thread.

Series 1: 1-109 (110 cards incl. extra checklist)
Series 2: 110-196 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 3: 197-283 (88 cards, ditto)
Series 4: 284-370 (88 cards ditto)
Series 5: 371-446 (77 cards, ditto)
Series 6: 447-511 (66 cards, ditto)
Series 7: 512-576 (66 cards, as above)

To follow up, the 11 double prints are Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, Al McBean, Jerry Walker, Wes Stock, Bob Oldis, Roy Face, Don Lee, Jim Davenport, Johnnie Wyatt, and a four player rookie card with Ed Kirkpatrick.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman

To follow up, the 11 double prints are Norm Cash, Don Zimmer, Al McBean, Jerry Walker, Wes Stock, Bob Oldis, Roy Face, Don Lee, Jim Davenport, Johnnie Wyatt, and a four player rookie card with Ed Kirkpatrick.

Ah, I missed that-thanks. Kinda weird though, right? Makes you wonder if there was a production issue of some kind.

On a related note, I think certain sheet positions in certain years can affect SP status. Some cards probably were probably cut or damaged so badly at the very end of the process they got chucked. Edges and corners can be problematic but other positions too it seems.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by toppcat

Ah, I missed that-thanks. Kinda weird though, right? Makes you wonder if there was a production issue of some kind.

I think it was done strictly out of the necessity to have a full 22 card color block to fill out a complete sheet and they probably didn’t have the time to create the new cards and this was the easiest and quickest solution at the time.

[vrechek]

Fun stuff, especially 57 years later. I noted -
Sugar's Bible from 1977 has the last series starting at #525,
Beckett #3 from 1981 starts it at #507 (as per the Topps checklist #509)
Beckett #14 from 1992 starts it at #523
SCD Catalog from 1999 starts it at #523
SCD Catalog from 2016 dodges it all by going from 447-576 for the high series
PSA today starts it at #523
No one much bothers with the reprinted checklist #509 issue.
Len Brown of Topps mentioned to me the need to match up the bases in this set like they did with the 1953s to avoid base colors bleeding over to where they shouldn't be.
Just looking at the last printing, it sure makes sense to me that they likely printed #509 along with #512 - #576 to have 66 cards with nicely matched bases - 22 of each color. I don't think the circle insets were as critical since I see some from an uncut sheet in the first series that don't all match.

Interesting also that the extra 11 cards mentioned in Series 5 are all found with cropping variations.
Yes, the bases should match up - except when they don't as in the case of #21, #28, #40 and #105 which seem to have some wrong adjacent base colors on miscuts.

[Kevvyg1026]

The 5th series does appear to be a 77 card run. The cards 371 - 446 (plus checklist) contain 33 cards with a red border, 22 cards with a yellow border, and 22 cards with a green border. It could haven been printed with a 4 rows 3x each and 3 rows 4x each (essentially no real SPs) or four rows 4x, two rows 3x, and one row 2x (so 11 SPs). Based on the research by Vrecheck, I speculate that it was the 4x3 + 3x4, with one of the red rows having a print issue on the sheet.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

The 5th series does appear to be a 77 card run. The cards 371 - 446 (plus checklist) contain 33 cards with a red border, 22 cards with a yellow border, and 22 cards with a green border. It could haven been printed with a 4 rows 3x each and 3 rows 4x each (essentially no real SPs) or four rows 4x, two rows 3x, and one row 2x (so 11 SPs). Based on the research by Vrecheck, I speculate that it was the 4x3 + 3x4, with one of the red rows having a print issue on the sheet.

That is the series that has the 11 double printed red based green inset circle cards with the noticeable cropping differences on the front and some of them have differences on the back. Topps did that to fill out a full 22 card block for that series sheet. I doubt very seriously that Topps printed any sheets with anything other than 22 card color blocks on any 1963 baseball series sheets. ETA: The Topps sheet creators went through a lot of trouble to create those 11 double prints, there was no reason for those 11 double print cards other than the necessity to fill out a full 22 card color block to complete a 132 card sheet consisting of six color blocks of 22 cards each.

[Kevvyg1026]

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Agree 100%, the 6th and 7th series are each 66 cards, which each having 3 different color 22 card blocks and no short prints. It’s possible for a 22 card color block to be short printed on a 1963 Topps sheet but that wouldn’t make any sense in a series of 66 cards on a 132 card sheet or a 264 card double sheet. I would also add that all 1963 Topps sheets were printed in 22 card color blocks, the 5th series has 77 cards but there were 11 double prints created in order to fill out a 22 card color block making it in essence an 88 card series. Unless some partial sheets or miscut cards showing two different color base cards on the same card show up it will be virtually impossible to show the layouts of the 22 card color blocks on either the 6th or 7th series sheets. I believe the 7th series sheet has the 22 card yellow block at either the top or the bottom of the sheet because it has a recurring print flaw of a horizontal row missing border lines but I can’t prove it, but it wouldn’t make sense for that flaw to affect a horizontal row in the middle of the sheet.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

My conclusion after reading all of the posts regarding my original post is that the border and inset colors have to match up and are in multiples of 11.

Therefore, either the print runs for Series 6 and 7 are wrong in the price guides and should be 447 - 511 (with the appropriate 431 checklist) for series 6 and 512 to 576 plus 509 checklist for series 7 or Topps inserted a lot of DPs in both series 6 and 7 to make the colors match (I find the latter hard to believe).

The SPs currently listed in price guides for the 6th series, despite being accepted for over 50 years by the industry, just don't match up with respect to border colors and certainly don't occur in multiples of 11, so I question their validity.

If the number scheme I proposed for the print runs 6 & 7 occurred, the colors match up and no SPs occur. My fervent hope is that some uncut material for either series would be found so we can ascertain what actually transpired.

Disagree 100%. Dealers at the time sold by the series and the 7th series started with 523. There has been no evidence given to explain this fact.

Please explain how we should expect the SPs to fall if the series were 447-522 and 523-576. We know Topps double printed cards every year 1961-1968 including the 5th series in 1963, so why is it hard to believe they double printed cards in the 6th and 7th series?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Furthermore, if one believe that Topps printed 55 cards in the last series of 1963 (523 - 576 plus checklist), then that would be the only time during the period 1961 to 1973 that Topps printed 55 cards in a print run.

This is not true. Topps printed 55 cards in the 7th series in 1961. They also printed 77 cards in the 6th series. We know that as a fact because the 7th series cards are much rarer than the 6th series. So, when it would have made sense to print 66 and 66 instead of 77 and 55, so the cards would be in equal quantities, Topps deliberately chose to print in unequal numbers. We also believe that Topps short printed one row of 11 cards in the 5th series.

So, we know that Topps was playing games with the 1961 set. Why would they have done things in a way that didn't create SPs in 1963? They also only printed 55 cards in the 7th series in 1964 while printing 77 in the 6th series. There are clearly SPs in those series too, but 1964 and 1965 high numbers are plentiful so it has never been an issue.

[Kevvyg1026]

Regarding earlier post which stated that 55 card series were issued in both 61 & 64:

The 7th series uncut (mostly) sheet I have seen for 1961 has 66 unique cards on it (not 55). Plus price guides show common cards as 523 - 589, which if the checklist is included gives 66 cards (since two numbers are missing). The 7th series for 1964 also has 66 cards (523-587, plus checklist).

[Cliff Bowman]

Getting back to the 7th series sheet, I know absolutely without a doubt that the top two rows are the yellow based cards. They could also be considered the bottom of the sheet, I don't know how to tell which end is up on a 1963 sheet. There is a recurring print flaw that affects the first eight yellow based blue inset circle cards, Ed Sadowski, Gus Bell, Cardinals team card, Ray Herbert, Sam Mele, Lou Klimchock, Mike McCormick, and Cliff Cook. The next three cards are Russ Snyder/Billy Klaus, Billy Klaus/Russ Snyder, and Don Cardwell. I know it's those three cards because they have blue inset circles and I know that Cardwell is the edge card, I just don't know the placement of Snyder and Klaus yet. The second row starts with the McNally multi player rookie card, but I don't know the order of the next ten cards, a yellow based checklist and nine yellow based red inset circle cards.

[Cliff Bowman]

Here are the last three cards on the 1963 Topps 7th series top row of yellow based blue inset circle cards, I don't know the order of Snyder and Klaus but Cardwell is definitely the 11th card on the edge.

[Cliff Bowman]

After scouring eBay, COMC, and WorthPoint I found these scans of miscut 1963 6th and 7th series cards to use to try to piece together each of the sheets as much as possible. The Freehan rookie card, McNally rookie card, and Cardwell are edge cards. If anyone can add any please do.