1963 Topps checklist question

[BillP]

I think this really get me closer to where I was, 7th series begins at #512. The checklist starts at #507. Why would a dealer start with #512 unless that's what he opened from wax or vending. I've been in the 512-576 camp for a while. I will say that I can't figure out why #496 dalkowski rookie is always so high. Up until a month ago I was convinced that this was an undocumented SP. Now I think it's the 66 #591 treatment or someone is hoarding again (????).
I will bring up again for those still feeling the SP exist that the color scheme or blues and reds in the becket sp's doesn't line up for me.
Get thread and since I'm a 63 fan/collector really enjoy the insight.

billp

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

I think this really get me closer to where I was, 7th series begins at #512. The checklist starts at #507. Why would a dealer start with #512 unless that's what he opened from wax or vending. I've been in the 512-576 camp for a while. I will say that I can't figure out why #496 dalkowski rookie is always so high. Up until a month ago I was convinced that this was an undocumented SP. Now I think it's the 66 #591 treatment or someone is hoarding again (????).
I will bring up again for those still feeling the SP exist that the color scheme or blues and reds in the becket sp's doesn't line up for me.
Get thread and since I'm a 63 fan/collector really enjoy the insight.

billp

I think the Dalkowski demand was just due to his semi-mythical status as the ultimate fireballer.

I don't think the full picture on series has been developed yet for 1961-66 (except 63 now) as they all kind of followed the same pattern. It may include 1967 but Topps changed the first series checklist endpoint # that year, so it might be a new pattern started there (1st baseball set developed and produced solely after the move to Duryea in early 1966). Checklists never really matched the actual series until 1967

I'm working on a long term pricing research project (hence all the TTS scans) and much of this stuff was never properly sorted out from the time of issue until, well, now. Most pricing structures for the Topps sets issued in series really came into focus during a 15 month or so period from mid 1977 until the end of 1978 and then once the first Sport-Americana guide came out, it just took off from there. Beckett did two price surveys before the first SA book was published, one in 1977 and another in '78 (both results published in The Trader Speaks) and they basically just tracked set prices. The first had 343 respondents, the second just had 201, although it was an update of the first one.

Lew Lipset was about the first guy to focus on and write about star singles pricing in a major way in his "Lew's Corner" column every month in TTS, although George Lyons sometimes did so as well in "The Lyon's Roar".

[Kevvyg1026]

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

[toppcat]

I made an Excel sheet then saved it as a JPG-if anyone wants the spreadsheet just PM me. This covers 1961-72 and you can see, if it's correct, which series the SP's might be possible within. 1971 looks weird in Series 3 & 4 as well, don't have time to look at uncut sheets right now, have at it.

[Kevvyg1026]

Those numbers and series runs are the same as what I have seen. Runs with 66 unique cards (4x each in sheet), 88 cards (3 x each sheet), or 132 cards (2x each sheet) produce no SP or DP cards in that run.

However, a print run with 77 cards should have some SPs in it, although the degree of short prints can vary, depending upon the specific pattern Topps used.

For example, for a 77 card print run, there are many ways Topps may have arranged the sheet (264 cards, so 2 pages, 12 rows, 11 columns). These include:

A) 4x3 + 3x4 (i.e., 4 rows 3 times each, 3 rows 4x each) leads to mild degree of SP

B) 4x4 + 2x3 + 1x2 (22 true SPs)

c) 5x4 + 2x2 (22 SPs)

D) 1x5+ 1x4 + 5x3

E) probably others

For a 110 card run, I believe Topps always used 4 rows 3x each and 6 rows 2x each, with one checklist in two of the 6 rows printed 3x (so 6 copies) and the next series checklist in a row that was printed 2x. Thus, the 110 card series had 1 card printed 6x, 42 cards printed 3x, and 66 cards printed 2x each (109 unique cards, 264 total cards). Sometimes price guides refer to one of the 42 cards in the rows printed 3x each as DPs (e.g., 1966 Rose, Mantle, Hunter, etc.).

[toppcat]

Generally, I think post 1960, the 77 card series are where true SP's reside and they don't seem to follow a set pattern. So these are all possibilities with 77 counts (but some may not be true 77 card impressions):

1961: 5th & 6th
1962: 5th, 6th & 7th
1963: 5th (solved)
1964: 5th & 6th
1965: 5th, 6th & 7th
1966: 5th, 6th & 7th
1967: 6th & 7th
1968: 6th
1969: 6th & 7th

I think there may not really be SP's in 1968 or 1969, more like Over Prints, which I'm sure is true for some of the above in the years prior as well.

[Kevvyg1026]

In the 1965 5th series, Topps used a pattern of 4 rows 3x each, and 3 rows 4x each. The rows headed by Bateman, Blanchard, & Drabowski were printed 4x each in the sheet, while those headed by Alou, Bertainia, Jackson, and Shaw were printed 3x each. Technically, any card in those last four rows should be SPs, but perhaps the overall quantity printed was high, so the 3:4 ratio might not be that significant.

[Kevvyg1026]

I will look at my uncut material later today for 1970, & 1971. My numberings may be slightly different.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I will look at my uncut material later today for 1970, & 1971. My numberings may be slightly different.

100% possible, I'm going from sources other than sheets on my list.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I made an Excel sheet then saved it as a JPG-if anyone wants the spreadsheet just PM me. This covers 1961-72 and you can see, if it's correct, which series the SP's might be possible within. 1971 looks weird in Series 3 & 4 as well, don't have time to look at uncut sheets right now, have at it.

1971 series 3 and 4, 2 extras due to coin checklist printed first in series 2 run. 1970 series 1, no extra checklist. 1970 series 3 def. 109/110 card series and has 44 cards printed 3 times (DP), includes Carew and Lou Brock.

John

[BillP]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

Great work, to continue our sleuthing with 1967 6th series, #476 Perez only SP mentioned in beckett for that series. Like with the 1966 #591, possibility that this card and that one were removed on 1 of the 2 sheets and replaced by a checklist? Only way I can come up with a legitimate 1 card sp. I guess the card would have to be on the end of the row. billp

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

Great work, to continue our sleuthing with 1967 6th series, #476 Perez only SP mentioned in beckett for that series. Like with the 1966 #591, possibility that this card and that one were removed on 1 of the 2 sheets and replaced by a checklist? Only way I can come up with a legitimate 1 card sp. I guess the card would have to be on the end of the row. billp

I think I've seen 4-5 other cards mentioned as SP in the 67 semi's but usually only start cards are noted this way. And the 62 highs with only the rookie stars cards as SP's? No way it's only 8.

[BillP]

Originally Posted by toppcat

I think I've seen 4-5 other cards mentioned as SP in the 67 semi's but usually only start cards are noted this way. And the 62 highs with only the rookie stars cards as SP's? No way it's only 8.

on the internet somewhere I have seen for sale the uncut sheet of sp and the uncut sheet of non sp highs. Both in frames. The 8 rookie cards are all grouped together in 1 section.

[toppcat]

Originally Posted by BillP

on the internet somewhere I have seen for sale the uncut sheet of sp and the uncut sheet of non sp highs. Both in frames. The 8 rookie cards are all grouped together in 1 section.

Updated this post, found the full 77 card "split" 62 high series proofs. You need the sheets as printed over the 264 card full sheet to see what the SP's are:

[Cliff Bowman]

I can confirm now that the #451 Indians team card is on the 6th series blue based red inset circle row and #470 Tom Tresh is on 6th series blue based orange inset circle row, so all 11 cards on each row of that 22 card color block are now known. The #553 Willie Stargell multi player rookie card can be confirmed to be on the 7th series blue based red inset circle row. That is Don Mossi opposite of the Stargell card. I will need more proof to be able to confirm which rows all of the other non single player cards are in the 6th and 7th series of the 1963 set. I have found several end of sheet cards and cards that can be confirmed being side by side but it will be a long process to construct the sheets. For example, Walt Bond, Harmon Killebrew, Ken Aspromonte are three consecutive cards on the 6th series red based yellow inset circle row.

[Kevvyg1026]

Great work. So the 11 cards with a blue border and red inset circle are: 451,457, 462, 465, 472, 477, 480, 490, 492, 495, 502.

And the 11 cards with blue border and orange inset are: 453, 455, 468,470, 481,483, 485, 488, 508, 510, 511.

The nine cards I show with Red border and orange inset are: 449, 460, 464, 467, 475, 478, 479, 493, 500 plus there is the Mets team (473) and the 431 Red border checklist.

The nine cards with red border and green inset are: 452, 459, 469, 471, 476, 484, 487, 501, 506, plus there is Al Lopez (458, Mgr card) and 496 (multiplayer rookie card).

The yellow border cards are: 447, 448, 450, 454, 456, 489, 498, 505 (all blue inset) plus 461, 463, 474, 482, 486, 494, 497, 504, 507 (red inset) and four cards (509 checklist, 491 Craft mgr, 466 rookie card, 503 Braves team) that I'm not sure which row they are on.

[Cliff Bowman]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

Great work. So the 11 cards with a blue border and red inset circle are: 451,457, 462, 465, 472, 477, 480, 490, 492, 495, 502.

And the 11 cards with blue border and orange inset are: 453, 455, 468,470, 481,483, 485, 488, 508, 510, 511.

The nine cards I show with Red border and orange inset are: 449, 460, 464, 467, 475, 478, 479, 493, 500 plus there is the Mets team (473) and the 431 Red border checklist.

The nine cards with red border and green inset are: 452, 459, 469, 471, 476, 484, 487, 501, 506, plus there is Al Lopez (458, Mgr card) and 496 (multiplayer rookie card).

The yellow border cards are: 447, 448, 450, 454, 456, 489, 498, 505 (all blue inset) plus 461, 463, 474, 482, 486, 494, 497, 504, 507 (red inset) and four cards (509 checklist, 491 Craft mgr, 466 rookie card, 503 Braves team) that I'm not sure which row they are on.

On the 6th series red based cards I don't know which rows the Mets team card, manager Al Lopez, the multi player rookie card, and the #431 checklist are on. One of them is next to Brinkman but I can't tell conclusively. I can confirm that manager Harry Craft is on the 6th series yellow based blue inset circle row, he is next to J C Martin.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

I would think that for 1967, the print runs were:
#1: 1 - 109 (65 cards 3x, 43 cards 2x, and checklist 1 6x) - 110 cards
#2: 110 - 196, plus checklist 2 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#3: 197 - 283, plus checklist 3 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#4: 284 - 370, plus checklist 4 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#5: 371 - 457, plus checklist 5 again - 88 cards (all cards 3x)
#6: 458 - 533, plus checklist 6 again - 77 cards
#7: 534 - 609, plus checklist 7 again - 77 cards

#1 math is wrong, should equal 264. Excluding series 1 CL 6 rows printed twice, 4 rows printed 3 times

[Kevvyg1026]

In 1967, there were 110 cards in the first run, but only 109 unique cards. The first checklist was in two separate rows.

[jmoran19]

Originally Posted by Kevvyg1026

In 1967, there were 110 cards in the first run, but only 109 unique cards. The first checklist was in two separate rows.

Not disputing that, problem is 65 were not printed 3 times etc. add it up you have over 264 cards being printed in series 1

[Kevvyg1026]

Clarification: When there were 110 cards printed in a series, it typically used a pattern where there were six rows of 11 cards printed twice each on the sheet and four rows printed 3x each.

But as I mentioned earlier, checklist 1 was on two of the four different rows that were printed thrice. Thus, in a print run of 110 cards, with 109 of those cards being unique, there were 66 cards printed 2x each (so 132 cards). 42 cards were printed three times (so 126 cards), and since the checklist was on two of these rows, it was printed 6x. This makes 109 unique cards (66+42+1) with a total of 264 cards (132+126+6).